Foton 404 - Starter makes winding sound

[rickyddriskill]

Well, I called Chris late this afternoon and he gave me the full update on how there were no starters that seemed to fit my tractor. Chris asked me if we could get together so one of us could turn the engine over while the other person checked the flywheel. Although the flywheel visually appears to be in great condition, it is not! I put a socket on the engine while Chris measured the distance between the flywheel and the outside edge of the casing (Chris' previous 2 3/16"). We found this distance changed (approximately 3/8") as we turned the engine so the flywheel is warped and I'm in a full blown mess.

I'm not sure what parts will be required to make these repairs, if there is anyone in this area that can do the work, or if this tractor is even worth fixing. I've never heard the thing run and it's possible the tractor could have any number of additional problems. Any input or advice is appreciated.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Did you check to see if the flywheel was loose? I've never heard of a flywheel being out that far. Worst case scenario here is a bent/cracked crankshaft. Seen that happen from shock loading.
Hindsight being 20-20, I don't think I would ever purchase a tractor with low hours from a first time owner.
Really sorry you're having these issues.

 

[rickyddriskill]

An additional piece of information that may, or may not, be relevant is the engine gets much harder to turn as the space between the flywheel and the casing increase (on the side where Chris measured the 2 3/16"). We didn't check to see if the flywheel is loose. I can tell that it is not wobbly. It is a smooth increase and decrease in distance as we turn the engine.

 

[EE_Bota]

An additional piece of information that may, or may not, be relevant is the engine gets much harder to turn as the space between the flywheel and the casing increase (on the side where Chris measured the 2 3/16").

I have heard no mention of a clutch inspection, or removal of a clutch inspection plate for the purpose of looking at that rotate. I am not sure it would help, or if it is easy to do (if for instance you have a loader on.) Your are smart guys, and I am sure you are trying to visualize as many things as possible though.

I bought a 2004 Jinma with 40 hours on it. Bob's comments about not buying low hour tractors from new owners if interesting because it does make a lot of sense. From day one, I have been doing as little as is reasonable on the spending front, but doing as much exploration, maintenance and testing as possible.

A man can blame himself if he won't think and work, and it costs him. But a working man thinking hard and doing his best should not blame himself for not being a psychic. I am hard on myself, so I adopted the "I thought right, but I am not a psychic" defense to keep me from becoming needlessly paralyzed in my thinking, and to keep me from beating my own brains out. I do my risk bartering and worst case gaming before the purchase, but sometimes it is hard to live up to my agreement to myself to accept all outcomes better than the worst case gracefully. Sometimes this is due to overestimating the "fun factor" I toss into some decisions.

 

[greg_g]

as we turned the engine so the flywheel is warped.

I doubt that. More likely the ring gear slipped. The flywheel itself doesn't have teeth. Whereas some ring gears are bolted on, I'm pretty sure the Foton ring gear is just pressed onto the circumference of the flywheel. Not unlike a great big bearing race. But to repair/replace will involve splitting the tractor. As Bota suggests, a warped flywheel would make the entire clutchpack wobble as viewed through the inspection port. That in turn would likely cause rotational binding on the nested driveshafts. Given the inertial mass, something in the drivetrain would likely already have snapped. So rather than jump ahead to a warped flywheel, think ring gear.

//greg//

 

[Diamondpilot]

I doubt that. More likely the ring gear slipped. The flywheel itself doesn't have teeth. Whereas some ring gears are bolted on, I'm pretty sure the Foton ring gear is just pressed onto the circumference of the flywheel. Not unlike a great big bearing race. But to repair/replace will involve splitting the tractor. As Bota suggests, a warped flywheel would make the entire clutchpack wobble as viewed through the inspection port. That in turn would likely cause rotational binding on the nested driveshafts. Given the inertial mass, something in the drivetrain would likely already have snapped. So rather than jump ahead to a warped flywheel, think ring gear.
View attachment 273754
//greg//

Greg

This is something Tommy though also and we talked about the possibility of this over the phone. While I had Tommy on the phone I put a wrench on the front of the engine and rotated it a few turns then went back and check the ring gear to the flywheel. It was on strait and true the whole way around (just barely able to catch a finger nail). At the time I was talking to Tommy, and then his shop man Jerry I was a one man show and you can only get a wrench on the front side of the motor from the left side and the starter is on the right side so I was giving it a few turns and running back and forth. I never thought to measure it but just gave it maybe 60 deg of turn then ran over to the starter mounting hole and checked the ring gear.

When Rickey came over last night we marked the flywheel with a marker and gave it two full revolutions with a wrench. One with me watching and him turning and another with him watching and me turning. We held a rule against the ring gear and like Rickey says there is a good 3/8" or slightly more wobble in it. I had pried on the ring gear with a bar and it feels solid along with the rest of the flywheel so something else is going on inside there. Only way to know at this time is to drop the loader and slit it. A job I just do not have the time for with work and a 1 week old baby. I am going to try to help him find a shop that can do this work.

As for the points in the rotation that Rickey says it gets tougher to turn I think its nothing more than engine compression but could be wrong? It seems to me I felt it 3 times as a I rotated the motor.

Chris

 

[Affordable]

Well at least we are getting some info on why the starter is not working, I agree the tractor will need to be split to determine whats going on with the flywheel, my best guess is it may have come loose.Once the tractor is split it should be pretty easy to see whats happening.

I will also look to see if we have someone in Indiana that could possibly help with the splitting of the tractor.We have sold alot of parts to different shops in that area that have done work on the Foton tractors bought thru Rural King,but I do not know much about them or there ability's

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

 

[Bob Rooks]

As for the points in the rotation that Rickey says it gets tougher to turn I think its nothing more than engine compression but could be wrong? It seems to me I felt it 3 times as a I rotated the motor.

Chris

Loosen the injectors and see if it goes away (thought you already did that?).

 

[rickyddriskill]

Is this Tractor Worth Dumping more money into? I've now got around $3800 in it, so where is the breaking point?

 

[EE_Bota]

Is this Tractor Worth Dumping more money into? I've now got around $3800 in it, so where is the breaking point?

Good question. If you are not going to do the split yourself, you could ask folks for a quote, and ask them if they would purchase it instead, and for what amount.

"Past loss is not loss" implies that were the cost of the repair to be $800, your are asking if your tractor is worth $800, not whether it is worth $4600. I know it is not as simple as all that, and we all get the "what's next" feeling sometimes, but it is food for thought.

 

[Affordable]

The Koyker Loader is worth around $ 2,000.00 by itself maybe a little more depending on condition. That leaves $ 1,800.00 for a 40hp tractor,you cannot find a used 40 hp 4 x 4 tractor for $ 1,800.00. I think with the tractor running with the Koyker 160 loader it should be worth at least $ 5,000.-6,000.00

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

 

[greg_g]

I agree with Tommy. I got $5500 trade-in for a 35hp w/Koyker 160. If it's worth that much as trade, it's worth more outright. And your FT404 is a much better tractor than my TS354C. Given your investment currently stands at only $3800, you've still got a lot of playing room.

//greg//

 

[Diamondpilot]

Loosen the injectors and see if it goes away (thought you already did that?).

You know, we did the first day to make sure it was not hydro locked but I honestly can not remember if it had the tight spots or not. At that time we were thinking some other problems, not a flywheel out of place.

Chris

 

[rickyddriskill]

Sounds good! I'm now in the process of finding someone locally to work on it. I talked to a guy that is willing to do the work but they are currently about 1 month out. Their rate is $50 per hour. Is this around normal for service work on these tractors?

 

[Bob Rooks]

Not sure about your neck of the woods, but that's a bargain - maybe. Check with the BBB and references for the shop. Typically, a good shop will be about $125.00/hr.+ depending on skill levels and comprehensiveness.

 

[greg_g]

Sounds good! I'm now in the process of finding someone locally to work on it. I talked to a guy that is willing to do the work but they are currently about 1 month out. Their rate is $50 per hour. Is this around normal for service work on these tractors?

$50/hr is no bargain if they've never split a Chinese tractor before. It's wasting money to watch them learn by their own mistakes. Tractor-specific experience would be my #1 criteria. I've done most of my own work, but sometimes there's a job that requires tools I don't own. So there's an ace mechanic down the road from me - retired after a career maintaining coal mining equipment. He's got a fully equipped shop, and tackles almost anything agricultural or construction for $25/hr plus parts. But he only agreed to work on my Chinese tractors because I had a full set of books, and that I agreed to observe/supervise his work. I trusted his mechanical competence, he trusted my experience with Chinese tractors.

//greg//

 

[rickyddriskill]

I met with my first prospective buyer today. He is a guy from Mt. Summit, IN (About 30 miles from here) and he offered $3600. The ad has only been on craigslist for 1 day and I listed it for $4500. He runs a shop that has worked on a lot of these tractors, he says, and they charge $45 an hour. After taking a quick look, he says these tractors are known for broken crank shafts and this is likely the issue. He didn't know I had also been looking for someone to work on the tractor. He says, as did Tommy, this tractor will only bring around $5K in good operable condition. I'm not sure if I should go-ahead with the sale or hire someone to fix it. When I asked him about working on it for me, he kinda tried to talk me out of this option. After a couple of days research, it just seems like there are not too many local guys willing to work on these tractors. This could be a major issue with me since I'm not a mechanic. Any input on what to do in this situation is greatly appreciated.

 

[greg_g]

My take on that; he knows what's wrong - can fix it at minimal expense - and wants to turn it right around for a profit. Let's face it - would you pay $3600 for a tractor that you knew up front that you'd have to split before it would even start? With the American loader, that FT404 is definitely worth more than $5k. Like I said, I got $5500 trade-in for a 35hp with the same loader. I think the guy knows what's wrong, and I think you can do better. Ask Chris if he knows anything about the guy that might prove me wrong.

//greg//

 

[Diamondpilot]

Greg, I tend to agree with you. I did not meet the guy, I was out flying, but I believe its the owner of N-Complete.n-Complete

The bread and butter of his business is to buy, refurbish, service, ect all the old Ford tractors from the N series, hundred series, and thousand series.

There is no way he would offer $3600 for a tractor that he would have 15 hours of labor on at $45 per hour (about $700) plus say $500 in parts then sell it for $5000. Its a $7500 to $7000 tractor.


Chris

 

[Bob Rooks]

I agree with Chris and Greg. He's a businessman too. Buy low, sell high. Your tractor is becoming a known quantity to you, I'd keep it.
Why is labor so cheap (inexpensive) in Indiana?