Foton 404 - Starter makes winding sound

[rickyddriskill]

I bought a 2003 foton 404 at an auction on Friday. The tractor only has 330 hours but will not start. Previous owner said it was working fine then shut it off and now it will not start. I gave $3100 for the unit, which also has a koyker 160 front loader, but I'm not really sure what is wrong. I removed the starter and the flywheel looks fine. Starter seems to be engaging when I jumped it to the batteries. What should I check next?

 

[greg_g]

Replace starter, reconnect wiring, start it with a screwdriver between solenoid posts. If that works, the problem is voltage loss through the keyswitch. Could be switch itself, clutch interlock under floorboard, or wiring loss. If that doesn't work, it's now possible to buy new solenoids for that starter. But before you spend the money, I'd recommend taking it to an auto electric shop for a checkup. If it turns out to be the starter motor itself, I've got an unused spare that should fit.

//greg//

 

[rickyddriskill]

Greg,

Thank you for the quick response. I'm going to take the starter in later today for testing. Also, I'm a little confused on the electrical system. I originally thought it had two 12v batteries but put a meter on the batteries and found that it was two 6v batteries. What is the benefit to having two 6v batteries over one 12v battery?

Thanks
Rick

 

[greg_g]

I'm a telecommunications engineer, not an electrical engineer. But I'll give this a shot. 2x6=more amp hours for the money. In China anyway. But on a diesel tractor, CCA is more important than AH. Despite the fact yours has 2 batteries, you don't actually have twice the CCA. In series, CCA is that of just one 6V battery. If you've got a vehicle that has a lot of accessories - accessories that may be used when the engine is not running - AH is important. On most diesel tractors, just starting is important. Hence, buy for CCA - not for AH.

So when it comes battery replacement time, I recommend you replace both with a single 12v of at least 750 CCA. Ordinarily I recommend at least 900, but you've got direct injection. Assuming it works properly, DI makes for easier starting - which in turn requires fewer cranking amps in reserve.

//greg//

 

[Affordable]

Ricky, we keep the starters, solenoids, starter drives ect. in stock for that tractor as well as most all of the other parts.I also have parts for the Koyker loaders.Rural King sold alot of those tractors, and that may be one of them.Check out your engine ID plate good, Foton used 2- different SL 3105 Engines, SL3105BT , SL3105ABT they use different parts .If we can help you with anything let me know

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

 

[greg_g]

Please clarify Tommy. My understanding has been that the difference between the SL3105BT and the SL3105ABT is five horsepower, which is obtained by the longer stroke of the ABT. Basically that's conn rods and crank. If true, the parts difference would only be those required to lengthen the stroke. Not positive, but I think they both even use the same IP. Granted, my experience is regional. But what I've consistently seen is that - for USA sales - Foton puts the 40hp BT version in the FT404, Jinma puts the 45hp ABT version in the JM454.

I don't doubt that there are FT454s sold elsewhere in the world, because I know the ABT specs from the Foton 400 series manuals. But If you are saying that there are FT404s in the USA with the 45hp engine, that would be good information to learn

//greg//

 

[Affordable]

There are Foton FT404 tractors with the ABT engine, the crankshaft, connnecting rods, Hydraulic pump drivers are different, as well as they use different fuel injectors.We are on Fotons parts network and have access to there parts look up,. Depending on the chassis number, they could have used either of the SL3105 engines or the 490BT in the FT404 tractors. The same goes for the TY395I engine that was used in both the Jinma 304 and the JM354 tractors, same five horsepower difference

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

 

[rickyddriskill]

Mine is the BT. I took the starter for testing and everything checked out good. I re-installed the starter and the first four or five times I turned the key it just made a single clicking sound (basically same sound as dead battery on your car). After that, it began making the winding sound again. Could this be a battery issue? If so, how would I jump this odd battery setup?

 

[greg_g]

You haven't mentioned having had the batteries tested. I'd do that next, it may save a lot of otherwise unnecessary troubleshooting. But if that's impractical for whatever reason, start by cleaning all four battery posts AND the associated cable ends. Then top up the battery voltage with a 12 volt charger if you have one. The red wire goes to the + post of the battery that's feeding the starter. The black wire goes to the - post of the other battery. Remove the charger if/when the batteries are topped up. If the batteries won't take a charge, replace them.

If they do - and still can't start the tractor, trace the ground cable looking for defects in the insulation. When you get to the end, unbolt it from the tractor. Scrape/grind/sand down to bare tractor metal, clean the cable lug, bolt it back on. Then trace the positive cable to the starter solenoid, again looking for defects in the insulation. Make sure that connection to the solenoid is clean and tight. Try starting the engine. If that doesn't work, move on to jumping your two batteries with one known good 12v battery. Most car batteries aren't strong enough to start a diesel, so make sure the donor battery has at least 750 CCA.

Put the red jumper cable on the 6v battery post that feeds the solenoid. Put the black jumper cable on the 6v battery post that is grounded to the tractor frame. If that works, you've begun to justify getting a new battery. If it doesn't we're back to my original suggestion that it might be the keyswitch-to-solenoid wiring. To take that out of the equation, first remove the jumper cables. Then take a screwdriver and start the tractor at the solenoid. You already tightened the + battery cable, so you know where that is. Look again at the solenoid and find locate a much smaller post with a wire attached. That's the wire from the keyswitch. Make sure the tractor is in neutral, then touch both of these posts at the same time. It will likely snap and spark, but stick with it until you make good contact between the two. If that doesn't work, it's additional evidence that the batteries are weak. If that works, you've just tracked the problem down to somewhere between the solenoid and the keyswitch.

That too can be remedied, but it's too early to cross that bridge just yet.

//greg//

 

[Diamondpilot]

Mine is the BT. I took the starter for testing and everything checked out good. I re-installed the starter and the first four or five times I turned the key it just made a single clicking sound (basically same sound as dead battery on your car). After that, it began making the winding sound again. Could this be a battery issue? If so, how would I jump this odd battery setup?

If you need help I am in Daleville. Been around these tractors for a number of years, about 10. I would first make sure the batteries are good then go from there.

Chris

 

[rickyddriskill]

Thanks for all the help. I'm going to work on it this evening and see what happens. I'll keep you updated on how it goes.

 

[Bob Rooks]

For the life of me I didn't know what was meant by "winding sound' until it dawned on me that you mean "clock winding sound" winding sound - YouTube. If you had said the starter solenoid was chattering I would have understood immediately and told you to check the voltage on your batteries first.
"Most automotive batteries are rated in cold cranking amperes, or CCA. This is the maximum available discharge current that a battery can sustain while maintaining at least 8 volts (65% rating) with the battery at 32ｰF / 0ｰC.
Most any other battery or cell, whether automotive, deep cycle, backup, industrial, or off-highway, is rated in its ampere/hour rate. This is the maximum rate at which a battery can discharge while maintaining rated voltage for at least one hour (ampere-hour). Some automotive cranking (starting) batteries will still display the amp/hour capacity as a secondary rating, or "reserve capacity" rating.
For automotive starting purposes, the CCA rating is more appropriate and relevant. A battery with a high CCA rating may not have a lot of reserve capacity, while a higher amp/hour rated battery may not be able to develop the same level of peak output current necessary to operate a starter as a starting battery. Starting batteries are designed to produce a high current for a short interval, then recover quickly. This kind of duty is not suitable for a deep cycle and will destroy one in a hurry." Your two 6 volt batteries in series is akin to a 12 volt deep cycle battery.

 

[rickyddriskill]

Chris,

I definitely need some help. Tried everything listed here with no success. I even went to rural king and bought a new battery. Still the winding sound. I also tried turning the flywheel, very hard to turn, but it did seem to move. My concern is the engine is locked up or some other major problem. Feel like a made a huge mistake at this point. It seems there are very few parts suppliers and virtually no one locally who works on these things.

 

[Rich Waugh]

If your starter is making that chattering sound like Bob Rooks spoke of, then you want to check out things like the battery ground, battery cables, etc. Low voltage is often caused by rust at connections, corrosion, etc. Clean everything to bare metal and then reassemble. Does this only happen when yo try to start it witht eh key, or does it also happen when you jump the solenoid with screwdriver?

Diesel engines, even small ones like these, are hard to turn over - lots of compression and heavy parts to move. Did you try to turn it over with the compression release pulled?

 

[greg_g]

If you bought a new battery, you must not have had success jumping it at the battery. But did you clean the frame ground down to bare metal? Did you try to short-start it at the solenoid? In a majority of cases, the problem turns out to be insufficient voltage between the keyswitch and the starter solenoid. Those solenoids need full battery voltage to throw the pinion into the ring gear on time, every time. When it drops to below 10 volts, you start to have problems. When you get into the 8-9 volt range, it's more misses than hits. Below 8 volts, about the best you'll get is clicking. #1 problem can consistently be traced to a dirty ground. #2 problem is pretty consistently found between the keyswitch and the solenoid.

//greg//

 

[zonta223]

Chris,

I definitely need some help. Tried everything listed here with no success. I even went to rural king and bought a new battery. Still the winding sound. I also tried turning the flywheel, very hard to turn, but it did seem to move. My concern is the engine is locked up or some other major problem. Feel like a made a huge mistake at this point. It seems there are very few parts suppliers and virtually no one locally who works on these things.

Tommy from affordable Tractors will be able to sell you any parts you need you only have to ask.
You have not mentioned what happened when you tried to jump the power on the solenoid?
The electrics on these tractors are not complicated they are a basic 1960's technology, no computers or flash electronics, and competent mechanic/auto electrician will be able to trouble shoot your problem in a few mins

 

[rickyddriskill]

Where is the compression release? I tried jumping the solenoid and it does the same thing. I did put a meter on the solenoid and it is 12v but seems to drop when the key is turned.

 

[rickyddriskill]

Cleaned all terminals and re-assembled all cabling using Vaseline to ensure good connections. Same problem. I recorded it this time and uploaded to YouTube. This is super frustrating. Thanks in advance for any assistance. I'm a computer guy with very little mechanical skills. I'm ready to someone to fix it unless anyone else has other ideas.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Cleaned all terminals and re-assembled all cabling using Vaseline to ensure good connections.

Vaseline is not dielectric grease. Get it out of there. Use this or equivalent.

CRC Grease-Dielectric Tune-Up .5Oz CRC-05109,Distributor Caps & Tune-Up Kits,JMSOnline.net Marine Supply and Boating Store

It sounds like the relay contacts or the windings in the solenoid are shot. Possibly the brushes in the starter too.

 

[EE_Bota]

Will his starter be of the type that works like this animation?

Car Starter Animation - Catia V5 - YouTube

If so, the solenoid engages the starter gear to the flywheel and THEN completes a circuit to turn the starter motor.

I agree with Bob Rooks, something fishy about that. Lousy electrics can cause voltage drops so bad when the starter is powered, that the solenoid cannot stay in. But, usually, that doesn't result in starter freewheeling...since

1)gears are already engaged on a proper system, so starter cannot run free, but is instead connected to the load already.
2)as the solenoid drops out, stalled starter is un-powered before gears disengage.