Alternative for remote controlled valve (cab setup)

[jim_wilson]

While I'm waiting to get my Kubota B3200, I've been investigating options on how to add more hydraulics. Ultimately I want to add a grapple - and potentially other - functions to the FEL.

I stopped by the Kubota dealer today and was looking at some of the stuff they had out on the lot - and happened across a B3000 Cab model - which has a pretty slick remote joystick setup where there is a joystick (called a controller in the Kubota parts catalog) - which is connected by what looks like 2 cables to the valve which is mounted in the "usual" spot on the right hand side of the FEL.

Even though my B3200 will not have a cab - I really like that setup because I could potentially add another joystick right next to the existing beside-the-seat joystick the B3200 has for it's FEL. Because I believe the B3000 and the B3200 share a lot of parts - I could probably make the whole setup look 'factory' - by using at least some Kubota parts.

The "controller" (or joystick) - is only like $328 according to the Messicks online parts catalog. But here's the kick in the you know what: the valve is like $1800 (Yikes!@).

I'm wondering if I could use the Kubota remote joystick - with some other valve (like something from Surplus Center). Are the hydraulic valves typically adaptable to be used with a remote? I see a kit on Surplus Center for Prince SV series valves (remote cable to valve) - and looking thru the selection of Prince SV valves on Surplus Center it looks like there's some options that might work for what I'm thinking of doing.

Anybody know if the remote cables for valves are any sort of standard? Or does Kubota maybe use Prince valves - so their controller joystick kit might work with a Prince valve?

 

[familyman]

I want one just so I can get on and off the right side.

 

[J_J]

Surplus Center - 2 SPOOL 25 GPM PRINCE RD522CCAA5A4B1 OC VALVE

Surplus Center - JOYSTICK CONTROLLER LEVER

http://www.princehyd.com/Portals/0/Valves.pdf Page V49

VALVE CONNECTION kITS
RD5000 series kit* 660170037
LVS, LVR or LVT, kit (loader valves)** 660170029
SV stack valve or RD4100 kit*** 660170031
Series 20 stack valve kit**** 660170035

http://www.princehyd.com/Portals/0/products/valves/LVManual.pdf

Page 22

Prince valves have the regen to the extreme right

Whatever valve Kubota uses, the regen is in the first position.

 

[Zebrafive]

JD also uses cable to control SCVs and Loader valves. The Loader valve on my 38 year old 2030 is cable controled. All the valves Loader and SCVs are cable controled on the 6415 (with the exception of the 3rd function loader valve that is solinoid controled.

Would be nice to know if all cable connections are the same or standardised, bet their not.

 

[oldnslo]

"Bowden" style push-pull cables are getting very common. Just watch the bend radius on them and also for moisture ingression. They get froze up in cold weather.

No most cable type controllers or joy sticks don't care what valve they attach to as long as the joy stick movement will fully stroke the valve spool.

Roy

 

[jim_wilson]

Thanks for the info everybody.

I spent some time crawling around the tractor last weekend trying to figure out exactly what I wanted to do - to add more hydraulic functions to the FEL.

My thoughts were:
- I wanted to be able to control a grapple - and not have to use a hand to do it (implies a foot control) - and I wanted to have the grapple not just be "on" or "off".
- I wanted to some hydraulic ports to the front that could be used for a hydraulic motor and not just a cylinder
- and I wanted to plumb in the provision for another hydraulic cylinder for something like "side shift".

Basically I wanted to have the ability to do just about anything.

As I started looking around at the layout of the tractor - it looked to me like the easiest way plumb all of this in - would be to cut in somehow to the backhoe hydraulics - rather than use power beyond on the existing loader valve. I confirmed that the tractor can supply enough flow by trying to operate the FEL and the backhoe at the same time (implying that if I tap into the backhoe hydraulic supply - I will be able to supply enough to operate the FEL and any auxiliary functions I add - at the same time).

I figure I will add a Fasse valve (or some other 12v diverter valve) - inline on the backhoe feed and return lines. There is enough space to fit the valve physically under the seat - I might just have to make up some custom brackets and get some custom lines made to adapt it in.

Then I went to the Surplus Center catalog and started looking around. My idea for the footpedal is to make up something similar to what Kubota puts on the B26 to control the backhoe thumb - a simple pivoting metal pedal that then operates a standard valve ( I might have to make a linkage or something - I still need to work out the details).

I found a joystick at Surplus Center that has a built in switch (good for operating the diverter valve) - and I put in an order for that:
Surplus Center - JOYSTICK CONTROLLER LEVER W/ SPST SWITCH

I saw the joystick you linked to J-J - but the one I ordered has the switch in it, more expensive but I like the simplicity of having the switch right there.

I still need to figure out the exact configuration I will use for the valve setup. But my thoughts are this:

3 valves - probably something like Prince SV valves stacked together.

One valve will be for operating the grapple - this valve would be controlled by the footpedal.
Second valve would be for operating another cylinder - I'm thinking of this as the 'sideshift' valve. I would operate this with the left to right function of the joystick
Third valve - a "motor" valve, this would be operated by the front to back function on the joystick.

I would mount the joystick on the LEFT hand side - approximately between the dashboard and the left side (left looking from the drivers' seat) FEL upright.

There is sufficient room in the area just around the floorboard/FEL upright to mount the valve block and hose hookups and so forth.

My biggest issue is just figuring out exactly which valves I should be using. I'm still a little sketchy on exactly how some of the valves function for instance. What I really need is to find a good tutorial on hydraulic valves functions.

For instance: I'm not really sure what "regeneration" is......

I think I've got the packaging and routing issues solved - I just need to figure out precisely how to lay out the hydraulics.

 

[MarkV]

Have you looked to see what WRLong has to offer. Many of the grapple users here are using a joy stick button arrangement from them.

MarkV

 

[J_J]

In your thinking about a motor spool, you might need a motor spool detent valve or a solenoid controlled valve using a switch to operate. If you want variable speed, then a lever motor spool valve is called for.

As you add valves in series, keep in mind that up stream valves have priority, and can take full flow and not allow any fluid downstream.

If an upstream valve is only using 5 GPM out of a 10 GPM flow, then any valve downstream can use the other 5 GPM.

A way around this is a flow divider, which will divide the flow equally or a set ratio.

Regen is a valve function that allows the fluid from the rod end and the pump flow to merge at the base end of the cyl and produce fast reaction speeds, but with less power. Some valves have the regen in the first part of lever travel, and others have it at the far right on the lever movement.

As far as laying out the hyd, lay it out on paper using colored pencils or use the computer graphics program to lay out the system.

You might even consider something like this. Build your valve to suit your purpose . 12v operated valve bank.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9SV-5E-Y&catname=hydraulic

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9SV-3E-Y&catname=hydraulic

 

[jim_wilson]

In your thinking about a motor spool, you might need a motor spool detent valve or a solenoid controlled valve using a switch to operate. If you want variable speed, then a lever motor spool valve is called for.

As you add valves in series, keep in mind that up stream valves have priority, and can take full flow and not allow any fluid downstream.

If an upstream valve is only using 5 GPM out of a 10 GPM flow, then any valve downstream can use the other 5 GPM.

A way around this is a flow divider, which will divide the flow equally or a set ratio.

Regen is a valve function that allows the fluid from the rod end and the pump flow to merge at the base end of the cyl and produce fast reaction speeds, but with less power. Some valves have the regen in the first part of lever travel, and others have it at the far right on the lever movement.

As far as laying out the hyd, lay it out on paper using colored pencils or use the computer graphics program to lay out the system.

Thanks J_J. You're helping me put the pieces together on this.

For the motor valve - I'm thinking that variable speed would be a good thing to have. By "lever" valve I'm assuming you mean a valve operated by a lever (similar to a "loader" valve" - where the position of the lever is used to vary the flow?

I guess I was thinking lever valve for the motor valve - and using the joystick as the lever.

When you use a cable operated joystick - do they have their own return to center - or do they rely on the valves return to center (if there is one). I wonder this because - if I used a lever valve to operate a motor - will it allow me to to just open it and leave it open (to leave the motor "on") ?

I don't think that I would run into a problem stacking the valves - and have any issues with the downstream valve using all the flow - because I don't think I would end up with a situation where all three functions would need to be used at once.

 

[J_J]

Using a joystick for the motor spool, would require a detent to have the motor run continously.

If you are trying to vary the rpm of the hyd motor using a lever, you will have to hold the lever in a certain position. That is why a detent is preferred. You can vary the sped all the way to end of lever movement when you will go into detent, or just flip it into detent and let the motor run. A hyd auger might need some slow rpm at times, and also reverse.

If you detent the hyd motor on, it will take all the flow from downstream operation.

A spring center valve will return the spool to neutral.

 

[jim_wilson]

Using a joystick for the motor spool, would require a detent to have the motor run continously.

If you are trying to vary the rpm of the hyd motor using a lever, you will have to hold the lever in a certain position. That is why a detent is preferred. You can vary the sped all the way to end of lever movement when you will go into detent, or just flip it into detent and let the motor run. A hyd auger might need some slow rpm at times, and also reverse.

If you detent the hyd motor on, it will take all the flow from downstream operation.

A spring center valve will return the spool to neutral.

How does a valve with detent work? Does the lever have to physically be moved to one side to put the plunger in detent mode?

I'm trying to figure out how that would work with a joystick - unless the detent on the valve side works by doing something like pushing the plunger all the way down to get to each successive detent position.

A hydraulic auger is a good example of why I'd like to have the capability to run a motor - I just want to make sure I set it up correctly.

If running a hydraulic motor would take all the flow from downstream operation I don't think that would be too big of an issue - that's part of the reason I was thinking of pulling from the backhoe ports to feed this setup instead of using power beyond from the Kubota loader valve - I figured I had a better chance of supplying the flow I might need if I went back to a separate feed - instead of from the FEL loader valve.

I was thinking something like this might be close to what I'm looking for:

Surplus Center - 3 SPOOL SV VALVE OPEN CENTER

3 Spool SV Valve Open Center

1st work section: SVW1CB1 (MOTOR SPOOL 3 POSITION DETENT) - this would feed the "motor" ports

2nd work section: SVS1GA1AA (DA CYL SERIES SPOOL SPRING CENTERED) - this would feed the grapple cylinder (or equivalent)

3rd work section: SVS1GA1AA (DA CYL SERIES SPOOL SPRING CENTERED) - this would feed another cylinder (like side-shift or something like that)


This valve says it flows 12GPM nominal or 16GPM max - I'm not sure what the hydraulics on the B3200 put out - but I think this would be sufficient.

 

[J_J]

Your valve flow is 6.7 GPM

TractorData.com Kubota B3200 tractor information

If you have a FEL on your tractor now, the float is a detent, and you push the spool into a ball and spring setup, and stays there until you pull it back

 

[jim_wilson]

Your valve flow is 6.7 GPM

TractorData.com Kubota B3200 tractor information

If you have a FEL on your tractor now, the float is a detent, and you push the spool into a ball and spring setup, and stays there until you pull it back

Thanks for the info on the flow. I seem to remember looking that up before - I just couldn't remember what the number was.

I have the LA504 on the tractor. So float on the loader valve is a detent that is actually located within the valve itself (not a separate mechanism on the joystick attached to that valve?

I'm asking because I'm trying to visualize how this whole setup would work - I don't believe that the joystick has any detent function ( at least I can't find any info about it having one). I've used valves before where each successive pullback of the joystick would give you a different detent - and then other ones where the detents are like separate clicks as you go further in the travel.

 

[jim_wilson]

Here's some Prince literature on the SV stackable valves, I'm looking thru this now to see it says anything about how the detents function.

http://www.princehyd.com/Portals/0/products/valves/catalog/ValvesSV.pdf

 

[jim_wilson]

Now that I read thru the Prince literature a little - it seems like I would probably want this work section for the cylinders, instead of the one I specified above:

SVS1GA1GG 4-Way Double Acting Series w/ Spring Center Adjustable 1500-3000 PSI

instead of:
SVS1GA1AA 4-Way Double Acting Series w/ Spring Center Port Relief Plugged

 

[jim_wilson]

Here's some Prince literature on the SV stackable valves, I'm looking thru this now to see it says anything about how the detents function.

http://www.princehyd.com/Portals/0/products/valves/catalog/ValvesSV.pdf

Answering my own question: the Prince part numbers explain it:

SPOOL ACTION
A-Spring Center (SVW & SVL only)
B-3 Position Detent
C-Friction Detent
D-Spring Center w/Float Detent (SVW only)

 

[My Hoe]

Subscribed....

I was told by the dealer "...there is no way to put a joystick on the left side of the cab."

Obviously, there are ways. There are just no "ways" that don't require some original thought and planning--which I commend you for! :thumbsup: (And those assisting you, too!)

Jim--you are deeper into this than I'll be able to get, before my purchase. So I'm pinnin' my hopes on you, brotha!" LOL

I wanted to operate the grapple with one hand, and the FEL with another. It seems silly to put all that work load (two joy sticks) on one hand, and none for the left.

I hadn't thought about foot control--but I would have assumed cockpit floor real estate was too hard to come by. So I'm interested in your explorations in that dept., as well.

My Hoe

 

[J_J]

If you want to work a grapple, then why not use a solenoid valve and use a thumb switch on the one joystick to operate the grapple.

One hand should be on the steering.

A selector valve that will switch the curl hyd to the grapple circuit will allow for feather, whereas the solenoid is full speed.

 

[jim_wilson]

Subscribed....

I was told by the dealer "...there is no way to put a joystick on the left side of the cab."

Obviously, there are ways. There are just no "ways" that don't require some original thought and planning--which I commend you for! :thumbsup: (And those assisting you, too!)

Jim--you are deeper into this than I'll be able to get, before my purchase. So I'm pinnin' my hopes on you, brotha!" LOL

I wanted to operate the grapple with one hand, and the FEL with another. It seems silly to put all that work load (two joy sticks) on one hand, and none for the left.

I hadn't thought about foot control--but I would have assumed cockpit floor real estate was too hard to come by. So I'm interested in your explorations in that dept., as well.

My Hoe

So here's my plan. I'll try to describe it as best I can - bear in mind - this is a B3200 - with no cab.

First - I'm going to use a Fasse valve or similar ( I actually got one of the diverter valves from Surplus Center last week - but I don't believe I'm going to use it - it's pressure limit is 2500 psi - and I believe the Fasse valves are 3000+ - so I'm probably going to go with one of those - the Fasse valve that is). I'm going to mount the diverter valve right near where the pressure ports are coming out of rear "pumpkin" under the tractor seat. I have a backhoe on my tractor - so what I'm going to do is tap into those lines and use that hydraulic flow to route it forward.

I will have to make ( or get made) - some custom hydraulic lines to make this work - but I've looked very carefully and there is enough space to mount the diverter valve right in that area (right hand side under the seat) . Plus - I took the backhoe off for the first time yesterday - what a pain in the you know what. I think the routing of the backhoe QA fittings could be made better with some work so I can do that too.

I will then send to lines forward - to the LEFT side - right under the floorboard. I've got to figure that one out a little - the routing is going to be tight - there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of space to send lines forward and across the tractor but I'll figure it out.

So under the left hand side floorboard - there is a decent amount of space. I plan on making up some sort of mounting setup - probably boxed in to protect the valve - and use a Prince "SV" style stackable valve setup with three sections. One section will be for the "grapple" , one section for another cylinder - and the last section will be for a "motor". I've looked at the Prince SV literature and it looks like they have all of those options available. To control all three valves - I am going to use a combination of a joystick - and a foot pedal. I already purchased a joystick from Surplus Center - with a switch on the handle (to control the diverter valve) - and that joystick will be mounted on some sort of mount I will have to weld up - and will be located right next to the dashboard on the left hand side (looking forward from the seat). The joystick will control TWO of the valves thru cables - that will be relatively short. I will have to find somebody to custom make the cables for me. The shortest ones I can find out there commonly available are 36" long - and I need something shorter than that.

The joystick will control one of the cylinder valves ( I am thinking of this cylinder valve as the side to side cylinder or side shift cylinder) - and the other axis on the joystick will be used to control the motor - pull it all the way to one side for one direction - to the other side for the other direction.

The last valve will be controlled by a footpedal - this is the valve I am thinking of as the "grapple" valve - to control a grapple cylinder. I will have to custom make a footpedal somehow but I think this is do-able - I just need to come up with setup that will actuate the valve in both directions - probably thru some linkages.

I will run quick connects forward to right around the same position on the left side - as the hydraulic QD's are for the loader on the right side.

I plan on running two feeds (the "grapple" and the "side shift" feeds) to the loader itself by running hard lines under the loader arm similarly to the way the hard lines are run for the loader itself. The "motor" feed will go forward and have a couple of QD connections right near the front of the tractor frame somewhere.

I'm going to have to get a tube bender to make the hard lines. None of the tube benders I currently have are really appropriate for the task of bending hydraulic lines.

This is probably going to take me a while to make it come together. I've got too many projects already - including finishing off my barn and getting all the construction material cleared out to make some space for the tractor. Once I can get that project more settled - then I'll have some space to work on the tractor better. In the meantime I'm going to accumulate the parts and continue to think the thing out. I find that once I start tossing ideas around in my head I can usually think something out pretty fully before churning out physical parts.

I'll keep the thread updated!

 

[jim_wilson]

If you want to work a grapple, then why not use a solenoid valve and use a thumb switch on the one joystick to operate the grapple.

One hand should be on the steering.

A selector valve that will switch the curl hyd to the grapple circuit will allow for feather, whereas the solenoid is full speed.

I guess I like to make things complicated! I would like the option to move the loader and the grapple at the same time. This is why I'm thinking foot control for the grapple - it allows me to have my left hand on the wheel , right foot on the "gas", right hand on the loader joystick - and left foot on the grapple footpedal.