Ballast almost flipped the tractor, really need some help!

[Marauderer]

Or we could leave it to "Mother Nature" to sort out the gene pools that should be allowed to own a tractor!!

 

[daugen]

I know you are just joking, I think...
but all of us make mistakes and one of the
best values of this forum is learning how not to
make them yourself. We are all on a learning curve, the trick is getting up
high enough without hurting yourself. Sorta like we all did with cars way back when.

I'm a long time boater and share your sentiments about "idiots out there" who will hopefully not reproduce. And we all see
terrible driving skills and inattention out on the roads. Those of us who like machinery and operating that
machinery with good skills try to operate with care. But as an older guy who learned on old tippy tractors, the problems the OP
had never would have occurred with an older tractor. It would have flipped over long before, particularly with tricycle front gear.
So our newer tractors have a lot more safety engineering in them, and I think are much safer than what I drove 50 years ago,
which is all good. So tippy is as tippy does so we all hope to come home safely. Drew

Gravity, friction and my own limitations keep my focus.

 

[DogwoodPapa]

First things first, glad to hear you were not injured and the tractor did not flip all the way. Now, lower the bucket to get those rear wheels back on the ground.

2nd, keep the bucket on the ground and power back up the hill - slowly. The bucket can be used as a skid to keep the rear wheels down.

3rd, more weight on the rear. Your tractor is properly balanced with no FEL or 3pt implement - naked, in other words. Add the FEL and you are front heavy.

4th, low and slow! Use the right gears and that hill will never be a problem with power going up the hill - but that's another thing we all had to learn. It's just that some lessons are scarier (or more expensive) than others. Stay safe and keep trying.

 

[Jesse masterson]

Driving a tractor is like a loaded gun , it can kill ya quick , I would suggest staying away from iffy situations till ya get more experience . or let someone with more experience drive on those situations and ask alot of questions. It's like anything the more you do it the more you recognize the dangers.

 

[Marauderer]

I know you are just joking, I think...
but all of us make mistakes and one of the
best values of this forum is learning how not to
make them yourself. We are all on a learning curve, the trick is getting up
high enough without hurting yourself. Sorta like we all did with cars way back when.

I'm a long time boater and share your sentiments about "idiots out there" who will hopefully not reproduce. And we all see
terrible driving skills and inattention out on the roads. Those of us who like machinery and operating that
machinery with good skills try to operate with care. But as an older guy who learned on old tippy tractors, the problems the OP
had never would have occurred with an older tractor. It would have flipped over long before, particularly with tricycle front gear.
So our newer tractors have a lot more safety engineering in them, and I think are much safer than what I drove 50 years ago,
which is all good. So tippy is as tippy does so we all hope to come home safely. Drew

Drew, Kinda of Joking but, not completely. I am on my first tractor and it is a SCUT. That doesn't mean it won't kill me any less quicker than a bigger one. I studied for a year before I bought one and I am still tippee toeing arounbd learning. The gent that started this thread is a good guy. He was fortunate to not get hurt or damage his tractor when he had his near escape with serious injury or death. He also has had an invaluable learning experience and with the additional pointers he got from just this thread i wouldn't expect him to have any more terrible situations.

Anyway Mother Nature back up by the infamous "Mr. Murphy" will take care of the worst offenders. The book you referenced I had already ordered from Amazon and am waiting for it to arrive.

 

[RaydaKub]

I would suggest staying away from iffy situations till ya get more experience

And therein lies the problem. The OP didn't recognize it as iffy. He's a lot smarter now, as are we all. I give him credit for recognizing he needed help and showed up here.

 

[Jesse masterson]

I meant no disrespect to the OP in my previous post if I offended anyone I'm sorry , I just don't want to think of anyone killed , sometimes there is mo learning curve after the first one !

 

[My Hoe]

I had the same problem when I was new to tractors. Here is what I learned...
Rule of thumb with loaders. Always carry a load close to the ground as possible. Never pick up a load when the tractor is on a side angle. Never use the loader raised in the air to push against anything! When on hills travel front up or down with loader close to the ground. The loader should never be used as a dig device. You will damage your transmission. A loader is just that. For Loose ground, gravel, back grading and such. Always wear your seat belt! As an option install a pre-tip over warning alarm. And Always have a counter weight. Hope that helps.

Is there a "Rule of Hills"?
This is a "newbie" question, and I know that, because I see those with experience refer to it only causally, but if you're in a TLB, especially a cabbed TLB, like a B3030, within a heavy, 8' hoe on the back, should you:

a) always back down a hill, and drive (forward) up a hill, as I've seen some seem to imply?
b) or always back up a hill?

Or IS there no "always"?

I'm guessing the answer is "always keep your FEL up-slope, regardless of your DIRECTION of travel, because the rear axle is SOLID, and the front axle is on a center pivot." (The center pivot would lend itself to "SHOULDER-ROLL" to the SIDE, much like the OP's JD was trying to do, with it's front wheels to one side--IMO).

In other words, is there a general rule, which I can take to heart, as a cabbed B3030 with a larger hoe (which I hope to get) will definitely have a higher COG than just about any other configuration I can think of.

And IF there's a RULE, is it ALL about the center-pivot, or is there some obvious weight-distribution factor in play, that I'm not seeing?



Related Boating Analogy
A few posts "upstream" (pun-intended) "Marauder", a fellow boater (I'm a life-time boater myself) made mention of his water-hobby and for those not familiar, there is a similar way a boat can get "jacked," or "shoulder-rolled," just in the way the OP's JD almost did. When you're in DEEP swells, you want to "surf" on their backsides, bow up, which requires careful throttle management, because there's always some "cross-sea" you don't want to hit too hard, so you might "lose your place," on the back of the big wave you're riding, even if you are careful. Well, if you happen to GO OVER the crest of the monster you're "surfing" on, now you're heading down in the trough (or "ditch," if you were going parallel with it) and this is the LAST place you want to be.

Why? Because the bow of a boat, I realize as I write this, acts VERY MUCH like the center-pivoted front axle of a tractor.

Look at the OP's JD--you don't want to "stuff" your bow into the bottom of that trough, at the same time that there's a swell under your stern, but if you DO so, you at least want to be STRAIGHT ON, just the way you want to go STRAIGHT UP, OR STRAIGHT DOWN, a hill on a tractor.

The WORST is when you're at, say, a 45-degree angle, and the "following sea" LITERALLY just JACKS UP ONE REAR CORNER, while you're bow is "stuffed,"--THE ANALOGY IS TO THE CENTER-PIVOT ON THE TRACTOR. You never want to have a "following sea" get under your stern, but if you do, you NEVER want it to be ONLY ON ONE SIDE, because you can do the same "SHOULDER ROLL" that the OP's JD was about to do.

I hope that is half as fun to read, as it was to write--if not, I apologize. I guess I miss my boating days (please knock on wood REAL WOOD for me, three times? Thanks...).

And yes, I almost got "jacked" just once (my term, but that's what it feels like--you're just waiting to see if you're going to do that sideways-endo--but there's no ROPS and no seatbelt! LOL). All of the references to needing to "do laundry" or "bury your skivvies" apply, 100%, too! It's THAT CLOSE, in reality, and as a feeling. I haven't allowed another wave to get under me like that since. And my boat, at 22.5', isn't tiny, either. The waves were probably only four-footers, but they LOOKED like six-footers. (They automatically "grow" a foot if you're alone, and two more feet if it's at night. My near-roll was in late December evening-daylight, near the Canadian border, and I was still a little shaken by the time I tied up.)

Funny, the "cross-pollination" between seemingly unrelated machinery, huh?

Hey Marauder--you mentioned those that we hope don't reproduce--how's this one grab you? A night-time crossing (I'm dodging the ocean-going freighters, shoals, buoys and trying to see "my" bay, near shore) when a boat comes shooting across my bow (of course, I'm to their starboard, so I have the right of way, but I guess nobody told them...).

But THEY'RE TOWING AN UNLIGHTED BOAT--and fast! IT, TOO, "swishes" by, right across my bow, waaay behind the first boat, and much closer than the first boat. Talk about "losing your head"! Yeah, I'm hoping they use birth control, at best....



Re: Loaded Tires
And it's my understanding that Kubota does NOT want loaded tires used with a back hoe? Though I know probably 75% or more TBN'ers ignore that, if I had to guess?

Anyone know the reason for Kubota's prohibition of loaded tires with a backhoe? I'm thinking too much stress on the rear axle? Yet there do not seem to be "pattern failures" associated with this common practice?

Further, I have a barn-floor weight limit issue, which means I would not want loaded tires anyway. I mention that only to say that I am resigned to having a TLB with a higher center of gravity than most, so I REALLY want to have the "which way is up" issue CLARIFIED. I already know not to traverse a side hill, and to ONLY go straight up or straight down, but I would love it if someone would lay out for me if it's always ONE WAY, (assuming both FEL and hoe are mounted) or not?



Staged? No, But Maybe It SHOULD Have Been....
Oh--I don't think the OP staged the near-spill, but I can think of a good MOTIVE to, which I mention with the hope that it will AID him in negotiating with this *cough* "dealer," either to get him a lighter, narrower 4-in-1, or a second bucket, with ballast box (in either case) or SOMETHING for his dangerous experience. He has this excellent photo, which he can show to prove to the dealer that the bucket is too big for the machine.

As someone before me aleady pointed out, when the bucket on a CUT eats up so much lift capacity that a SCUT like a BX can outlift it then, absent a very specific need for that bucket, I think that's almost criminal, as in misrepresenting what the OP was being sold. A tractor that big that can only lift (what was it somebody said?) 343lbs? That seems a little ridiculous.

Glad the OP wasn't hurt, and had the "intestinal fortitude" (strength of character) to share his experience, so others (like me) could learn from it.

Thanks,

My Hoe

 

[JohninCT]

EXACTLY! Around here a dealer would be in DEEP DOO DOO for that!!!

PS, a JD 4005 would walk right up those hills, not wasting any power on hydrostatics!!Same size tractor, Collar shift

BEST multi use front end tool!>>>Artillian Tractor Attachments

True, and that's what we would expect in the United States.
However, the OP lives in Australia and how dealers work there may be quite different.

Are you guys somehow saying that it's standard practice or expected for dealers in the US to not sell or deliver tractors in the US with loaders and nothing on the back for ballast? I think not. They sell you what they can/you want not necessarily what's safe.

 

[JohninCT]

I recently put in an order with a local Australian Victorian State dealer for a KUBOTA MX5100 HST 4WD 4-1 FEL, SLASHER, CANOPY [no BH avail with this model in Aust] and in respect to dealer providing information prior to my purchase...it was non existent unless i asked the questions...he NEVER offered any real advice and it took me a great deal longer to decide which Tractor to finally put an order for.

He was reasonably forthcoming to every email when i asked questions...a novice would or should ask, and inpatient for me to stop the questions and put the order in, but since i have put my deposit down and i asked a couple more questions...he has NOT answered any of the IMPORTANT questions about the appropriate ballast for the MX5100 with Water in the tires, when using FEL with wet clay..

MOST IF NOT ALL my information has come from the very helpful people in the USA on TBN, YOUTUBE, EVERYTHING ATTACHMENTS, ORANGE TRACTOR MECHANIC etc and asking questions to local farmers and relatives for their opinions of Kubota.

I'm thinking that modern day dealer salespeople are probably poorly advised not to put questions into potential buyers heads by offering reasonable advice for ones needs for fear of either delaying or directing buyers to other brands maybe? I dont really know but its been a nightmare trying decide which Tractor would best suit my intended use, as i have flat, gently undulating and steep acrea areas to deal with.

KUBOTA should look into the calibre of the dealership appointments IMO.
IMO KUBOTA should prepare its own series of YOUTUBE sessions of how to drive, operate and use the Tractors in different situations cluding digging up hard clay areas as a service for intending buyers like me BEFORE customers put in a deposit. Some prearranged driving and safety instructions on a real tractor might actually increase sales too IMO.

I stayed with the dealer due to close proximity and the price, but i expected somewhat a better level of salesmanship and service prior to purchase, but i now know i need to find a local mechanic of which there are many to have it serviced because i doubt the dealer is going to be any great help after delivery and I'll be calling KUBOTA direct with any problems.

I had to ask the dealer to put water in the tires as part of the order,

My basic question which I expected him to just provide a 2 second as he should know reply....but

Can anyone here on TBN the source of most of my education....advise me whether a KANGA M150 SLASHER and with water in tires to 90% capacity with wheels set at largest width will be enough for when i operate the FEL in wet clay?

Thanks guys.

The MX5100 is a good sized machine. Definitely get the rear tires filled. I would suggest trying the loader out with the mower on the back and on flat ground to get a feel for how much of the clay soil you can lift. To be safer and maximize the amount you can lift with the FEL you probably want to get or build a heavier rear ballast (like a barrel full of concrete).

 

[bgi]

Are you guys somehow saying that it's standard practice or expected for dealers in the US to not sell or deliver tractors in the US with loaders and nothing on the back for ballast? I think not. They sell you what they can/you want not necessarily what's safe.

My read on that led me to think there was more to it. #1 the dealer knew these guys were new to tractors, so YES to what you said or at least have a discussion about rear ballast. Even worse, #2 the bucket is WAY TOO #$*&# HEAVY for that tractor. NO $#*& EXCUSE for selling them that bucket.

 

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

I have just read the Thinggy42 post and realise that both he and I are both in Australia and both new to tractor use and some readers have assumed that the topic was about dealers in USA when it seems almost evident that at least two dealers in Australia do not pay any serious attention to safety matters such as Ballast on the rear and obviously I must conclude only two possibilities...the First being that Tractors are modified in Australia to ensure Ballast is not required OR Secondly that dealers in Australia are not attending to basic safety & warranty requirements by remaining silent on the issues and not doing their own businesses justice by not attempting to sell extra ballast or implements which can act as defacto ballast. My two conclusions are puzzling and i need to try find out as a matter of urgency which is the case.

In Thingy42 's case it seems obvious that something went terribly wrong and could have resulted in a fatality and the accident would have been examined forensically if it had been on public roads, whereas these issues and accidents do not appear to be investigated as the occur on most occassions on private land and only officially investigated in cases of reported work accidents causing personal injury and deaths. Would others agree?

I again asked my dealer if the MX5100 needed any further ballast other than back tires filled to 90% when using the 4-1 FEL and the answer was that it was adequate.....yet this advice appears to differ to most posters in TBN. I should add that in the process of my inquiries to purchase the MX5100 the BH92 was able to be purchased and used at the rear however this changed due to local safety regulations and now the BH92 cannot be used behind the tractor as the ROPS cannot be modified.

Do I conclude from that action that our safety authorities are on top of all safety matters and my dealers advice to me is correct ?

All comments would be appreciated.

 

[joshuabardwell]

a) always back down a hill, and drive (forward) up a hill, as I've seen some seem to imply?
b) or always back up a hill?

The user manual for my tractor says to always go up and down a hill with the heavy end of the tractor facing up-hill. So if you have a tractor with a loader, the loader bucket would always face uphill. If you had a tractor with an implement on the back and no loader, the implement would always face uphill.

Anyone know the reason for Kubota's prohibition of loaded tires with a backhoe? I'm thinking too much stress on the rear axle? Yet there do not seem to be "pattern failures" associated with this common practice?

I can't speak to Kubota's recommendation, but loaded tires do not place any weight on the axle at all. All of the weight of the tire loading is on the contact patch with the ground. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage. It's an advantage in that it doesn't add to your axle load at all. It's a disadvantage in that it doesn't take any weight off of the front axle and onto the rear axle like a 3ph mounted implement would.

If I had to guess, I would guess that Kubota figures you got a backhoe back there. What more counterweight do you need? If you were going to run your tractor with the backhoe off, you would almost certainly need some other kind of counterweight on the back to safely use your FEL. My owner's manual indicates lifting capacities for the tractor under various conditions (loaded tires with ballast box, etc...). Nowhere does it indicate safe capacity for an un-ballasted tractor. That is, incidentally, the state that my tractor is currently in, and so I go real slow and careful when using the FEL.

Further, I have a barn-floor weight limit issue, which means I would not want loaded tires anyway. I mention that only to say that I am resigned to having a TLB with a higher center of gravity than most, so I REALLY want to have the "which way is up" issue CLARIFIED.

Does your owner's manual say anything on this? My gut would be that it would depend entirely on which end of the tractor was heaviest. Presumably, the backhoe weighs a lot more than the FEL, so I would think you would want to put it on the uphill side.

 

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

Does anyone know how to change direction on a hill and what angle mill is it safe to do so? I have flat to undulating to very steep land in parts....so if im starting out on the flat and driving up a slight slop which later become steeper and i wish to change direction say 90 degrees ....how could i do it safety ...are there any training videos for similar situations when slashing weeds etc or doing trail cutting work ?

 

[RaydaKub]

I again asked my dealer if the MX5100 needed any further ballast other than back tires filled to 90% when using the 4-1 FEL and the answer was that it was adequate....

First, based off several threads I've read here, you should only fill them to 75% (tire valve at 12 o'clock). There should not be a steady stream of fluid coming out if you push the valve. This gives the tire enough air space to still have some give to it when you hit that sharp rock. Second, that much ballast could hold the bucket up and the back end down, but I don't think it would be enough when the bucket actually has something in it.

 

[Marauderer]

I meant no disrespect to the OP in my previous post if I offended anyone I'm sorry , I just don't want to think of anyone killed , sometimes there is mo learning curve after the first one !

Jesse, I for one didn't think you were being disrespectful in any way.

Isn't this a great forum!!

 

[joshuabardwell]

Does anyone know how to change direction on a hill and what angle mill is it safe to do so? I have flat to undulating to very steep land in parts....so if im starting out on the flat and driving up a slight slop which later become steeper and i wish to change direction say 90 degrees ....how could i do it safety ...are there any training videos for similar situations when slashing weeds etc or doing trail cutting work ?

I wanted to wait to see if any more experienced operators would weigh in, but since none are, her is my two cents. There is some safe lateral operating angle for your tractor. What that exact angle is depends on a lot of factors, such as width between your wheels, presence or absence of ballast, and so forth. Whatever that angle may be, there is no safe way that I can think of to exceed that angle, regardless of technique. So if your safe lateral angle is 10% grade, and you are driving up a 10% grade hill, you cannot turn ninety degrees to that grade without entering an unsafe condition. You need to approach the hill from a different point, drive to the top of the hill and then back down it, or something else to get you where you want to go without exceeding the safe operational envelope of the tractor.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Does anyone know how to change direction on a hill and what angle mill is it safe to do so? I have flat to undulating to very steep land in parts....so if im starting out on the flat and driving up a slight slop which later become steeper and i wish to change direction say 90 degrees ....how could i do it safety ...are there any training videos for similar situations when slashing weeds etc or doing trail cutting work ?

I wanted to wait to see if any more experienced operators would weigh in, but since none are, her is my two cents. There is some safe lateral operating angle for your tractor. What that exact angle is depends on a lot of factors, such as width between your wheels, presence or absence of ballast, and so forth. Whatever that angle may be, there is no safe way that I can think of to exceed that angle, regardless of technique. So if your safe lateral angle is 10% grade, and you are driving up a 10% grade hill, you cannot turn ninety degrees to that grade without entering an unsafe condition. You need to approach the hill from a different point, drive to the top of the hill and then back down it, or something else to get you where you want to go without exceeding the safe operational envelope of the tractor. Given this, there may be locations on your property where you simply cannot safely drive your tractor.

 

[JohninCT]

I have just read the Thinggy42 post and realise that both he and I are both in Australia and both new to tractor use and some readers have assumed that the topic was about dealers in USA when it seems almost evident that at least two dealers in Australia do not pay any serious attention to safety matters such as Ballast on the rear and obviously I must conclude only two possibilities...the First being that Tractors are modified in Australia to ensure Ballast is not required OR Secondly that dealers in Australia are not attending to basic safety & warranty requirements by remaining silent on the issues and not doing their own businesses justice by not attempting to sell extra ballast or implements which can act as defacto ballast. My two conclusions are puzzling and i need to try find out as a matter of urgency which is the case.

In Thingy42 's case it seems obvious that something went terribly wrong and could have resulted in a fatality and the accident would have been examined forensically if it had been on public roads, whereas these issues and accidents do not appear to be investigated as the occur on most occassions on private land and only officially investigated in cases of reported work accidents causing personal injury and deaths. Would others agree?

I again asked my dealer if the MX5100 needed any further ballast other than back tires filled to 90% when using the 4-1 FEL and the answer was that it was adequate.....yet this advice appears to differ to most posters in TBN. I should add that in the process of my inquiries to purchase the MX5100 the BH92 was able to be purchased and used at the rear however this changed due to local safety regulations and now the BH92 cannot be used behind the tractor as the ROPS cannot be modified.

Do I conclude from that action that our safety authorities are on top of all safety matters and my dealers advice to me is correct ?

All comments would be appreciated.

I would say only to the extent that they want your ROPS to function as designed if you tip over. However, what you do to get yourself to that point is entirely beyond their control.

If you look at the Rimguard web site they show that for a tire size 17.5L-24 (MX5100 rear R4 per tractordata) 75% full will give 588lbs for each tire (1177lbs total). Your loader can lift 2443 lbs. I think someone posted force diagrams earlier in the thread. Look at these with these numbers in mind. On flat ground you are probably OK because you will have the weight of the tractor and tire ballast behind the front axle pivot helping to offset the opposing force from the bucket. A downward slope, a raised bucket can change this. If it were me, I would (and do) have rear tires filled and extra weight on the 3 point hitch for heavy work with the loader and ALWAYS keeping the bucket as low as possible when travelling with a load in it.

 

[Ron JD670]

Thanks, but I'd rather not learn from a good scare. I'd prefer to learn by reading what y'all post here. Much less hassle on the washing machine!

Thanks for keeping newbies like me safe.

Rog

Almost tipped my used new to me tractor on day two unloading the box blade with a chain on my FEL. Dropped the BB. No damage but had to take 15 minutes to gather myself. Figured out how to add fluid to the tire and hook up box blade for ballast before I did any loader work. Didn't read entire thread so this may be redundant but here is is a link to where you can get an adapter and they have good instructions for you to look at also:
Installing Liquid Ballast in Tires | Gempler'sx
Amazing what water pressure can do
I used a "Y" hose fitting at both ends and laid the hose out on a slope purged the hose then filled with RV anti freeze through a funnel the closed those valves and opened the water valve to inject anti freeze into tire then repeat until filled to valve stem.
What a difference in stability.

Again sorry if this is late and redundant.

Good luck and best wishes
RoN