A long distance wiring question

[woodlandfarms]

So here is the dilemma. I found I have 12.3 running 250 ft and not 10.3 as it should be.

To create a 110 circuit, can I double the hot side up without doubling the neutral? Meaning can I hook the red and black to the hot leg of the breaker (2 12guage wires) but keep the neutral ( white ) as a single 12 gauge?

If yes, will this improve my voltage drop problem?

 

[Steave]

No. In a 110v circuit the hot and neutral carry the same current so the neutral wire would still be considered a single conductor. There are several good voltage drop calculators on the web. They tell you about the code being a 5% allowed drop in voltage in a given circuit. I would suggest to try and stay as close to that as possible.

Google; nooutage.com look down the list on the left to #9 and look at their voltage drop calculator it's very thorough.

 

[EddieWalker]

What makes you think you have a voltage drop issue? 12 gauge wire will only lose about an amp over that distance. It is not a very long run, and with a 20 amp breaker, you should be able to power just about anything that runs on 110 volts.

What are you trying to do, and what is happening?

Eddie

 

[EE_Bota]

So here is the dilemma. I found I have 12.3 running 250 ft and not 10.3 as it should be.

To create a 110 circuit, can I double the hot side up without doubling the neutral? Meaning can I hook the red and black to the hot leg of the breaker (2 12guage wires) but keep the neutral ( white ) as a single 12 gauge?

If yes, will this improve my voltage drop problem?

Yes, and it should improve the situation somewhat.

R going out, R of the load, R coming back is a worse situation than
R/2 going out, R of the load, R coming back.

The total wire resistance in the former case is 2 R.
In the latter R/2 + R = 1.5 R. Any improvement will be marginal. Won't hurt.
Listen to practical answers...frequently given by electricians and folk who know code. I am neither of these.

 

[Johnp33]

If you are running a breaker box at the end of the wires, that is what I would do, then you have the two hots and one neutral and the ground all connected at that panel. With both hots to one side of the box. I would drive in a separate ground rod, or as is required hear a plate buried 2 ft in the ground. The neutral and grounds in all breaker boxes are both connected to the body of the panel. Then run your equipment off of that.
Just a thought!

 

[s219]

I hope a real electrician jumps in.

I will tell you that wiring is like pipe and current is like flow. The smallest pipe is going to limit the flow.

Doubling the hot wire won't help much if the neutral return leg is still single conductor. Any improvement would be marginal at best.

I have shared a neutral with two hots when they were different phase, so the neutral is never really carrying more than one return leg of current, same as the individual hots. But that's a different animal all together.

 

[grsthegreat]

Ok... im an electrical contractor so here goes.

1. I agree with previous poster about not doubling up hot leg as this in not legally allowed on a 110 circuit. you can do it for a 220 circuit though... but not for long. code changes are in the works to kill this practice.

2. In 250 feet, a #12 wire running 240 volt single phase will lose 8% or 19.1 volts of the 220 volt circuit AND 19.1 VOLTS OR 15.9% OF A 110 VOLT CIRCUIT . By standards we try to regulate it to NO MORE than 3% voltage drop: HOWEVER 2011 NEC code no longer restricts us to a 3% value. In other words you could use this and be legal, but you may damage some kinds of equipment. Light bulbs would not be affected, but motors can (as voltage drops amperage draw increases so heat also increases).

3. Generally we NEVER worry about voltage drop until we reach 100 feet. I have run electric gates out to 300 feet and even though its just a 20 amp motor, ive had to use #6 aluminum or #8 copper wire.

 

[grsthegreat]

What makes you think you have a voltage drop issue? 12 gauge wire will only lose about an amp over that distance. It is not a very long run, and with a 20 amp breaker, you should be able to power just about anything that runs on 110 volts.

What are you trying to do, and what is happening?

Eddie

SORRY EDDIE...NOT EVEN CLOSE. more like 19 volts..... this can wreck havoc on motors.

 

[EddieWalker]

What happens to the electric motor?

I ran 12/2 eight hundred feet to my front gate and installled some lights on either side of it on a 20 amp circut. I also put in an outlet that I use for power tools when I'm doing something out there. When I was installing the cultured stone on my block, I ran my 14 inch chop saw to cut the stone. When I was installing the block, I ran my cement mixer. I've used power drills and even an electric weed eater with a one hundred foot extension cord.

Everything worked fine and all of those tools are still working many years later.

I actually have 124 volts on each leg at my panel. Does that mean the extra 14 volts will wreck havoc on my motors? or is that only when it's under 110 volts? I really don't worry too much about voltage, just amps.

Eddie

 

[Gary Fowler]

I tried running my air compressor off a 100 foot cord, likely 14/2 wire but didnt check but that is what most cords are, and it wouldnt even start the motor. Had to drag it back to the shop and pull out 100 foot of air hose which worked perfectly. I have a 25 foot SO cord that I run it with in the shop. I think it is 10 gauge wire.

 

[mjw357]

Depends on the motor in question. I've tried to use my air compressor on 200' of extension cord from the house. The motor will run noticeable slow and then will trip the breaker that's on the compressor. As voltage drops, current rises.

 

[RyGuy24]

The issue you get with starting motors is the inrush current which can be as high as 6x the motor nameplate current. This compounded with voltage drop over long runs of undersized wire can burn out motors. A wire rated at 20amps drawing 20amps gives you "x" voltage drop (don't have my code book near) but I you're starting a motor under load an that same wire has say 60amps going through it you have approx "x" voltage drop times 3 so you can see the problem compounds. The reason lights aren't affected as bad is because there is no inrush current to start them. Also power tools normally have no load or not much so they start easy which reduces the inrush current. You will notice they don't have nearly as much 'torque' when on a long undersized cord, this is because of the voltage drop increasing as the load goes up. Air compressors are a great example of this. When starting there is no pressure in the cylinder but it builds pressure quickly so if it doesn't get up to running speed of the motor (which means full hp which the current drops when it reachs synchronous or slip speed) before the pressure builds up you will have a compressor which will humm and do nothing but burn its motor out unless youre lucky and the overload trips or you turn it off.

 

[Joe H]

If you are running a breaker box at the end of the wires, that is what I would do, then you have the two hots and one neutral and the ground all connected at that panel. With both hots to one side of the box. I would drive in a separate ground rod, or as is required hear a plate buried 2 ft in the ground. The neutral and grounds in all breaker boxes are both connected to the body of the panel. Then run your equipment off of that.
Just a thought!

The neutral is NOT bonded to ground in a sub panel.

Joe H

 

[hr3]

So here is the dilemma. I found I have 12.3 running 250 ft and not 10.3 as it should be.

To create a 110 circuit, can I double the hot side up without doubling the neutral? Meaning can I hook the red and black to the hot leg of the breaker (2 12guage wires) but keep the neutral ( white ) as a single 12 gauge?

If yes, will this improve my voltage drop problem?

One thing nobody has asked yet is what is your load,,??? What are you trying to run at that distance,,

 

[woodlandfarms]

So here is my setup.

I have an abandoned well 250 ft from my house. In the breaker box the wire is 10 guage. But at the outlet it is 12 guage. I set it up so that i had two 110 legs abandoning the 220. The install was done on the cheap I guess that is why there is 12 guage for a well pump. At the relay box that activated the old well pump is where the switch in guage is made.

I ran my Sawzall the other day and it ran but slow. I ran an air compressor earlier and it ran just fine.

The heaviest load i forsee is either a power tool or the Inlaws camper which has a mini fridge.

Carl

 

[grsthegreat]

What happens to the electric motor?

I ran 12/2 eight hundred feet to my front gate and installled some lights on either side of it on a 20 amp circut. I also put in an outlet that I use for power tools when I'm doing something out there. When I was installing the cultured stone on my block, I ran my 14 inch chop saw to cut the stone. When I was installing the block, I ran my cement mixer. I've used power drills and even an electric weed eater with a one hundred foot extension cord.

Everything worked fine and all of those tools are still working many years later.

I actually have 124 volts on each leg at my panel. Does that mean the extra 14 volts will wreck havoc on my motors? or is that only when it's under 110 volts? I really don't worry too much about voltage, just amps.


Eddie

well im not sure what kind of loads you have on a 800 foot run, or even how any motor can run with an 800 foot extension cord (so to speak). If i was to try and run my hole hog on 200-300 foot #12 extension cord, it doesnt run very well...if at all.

Ohm's law states that as voltage decreases amperage has to increase to compensate. So as voltage drops on a long run (voltage under load) ..the amperage has to increase to compensate for it. Now if the wire ISN'T thick enuf to allow for this increase in amperage, heat is produced. Same with a motor. If it cant get enuf power to operate properly, it will draw more amperage...thus heat up. I have actually burnt out hole hawgs over the years using too long of an extensi9on cord that wasn't thick enuf.

So im really not sure HOW you can operate cut off saws at 800 feet. never seen that accomplished ever. But all i can say is the reading at the end of the run (125 volts) is a non loaded reading. id be interested in seeing a voltage and an amp reading while a saw or drill was being used.

Also im confused by the statement that you ran 12/2 but have 124 volts on each side. Is this the voltage between the neutral and the hot?. Theres no way 12/2 can give you 2 separate 120 volt circuits? am i missing something

thank you

 

[hr3]

So here is my setup.

I have an abandoned well 250 ft from my house. In the breaker box the wire is 10 guage. But at the outlet it is 12 guage. I set it up so that i had two 110 legs abandoning the 220. The install was done on the cheap I guess that is why there is 12 guage for a well pump. At the relay box that activated the old well pump is where the switch in guage is made.

I ran my Sawzall the other day and it ran but slow. I ran an air compressor earlier and it ran just fine.

The heaviest load i forsee is either a power tool or the Inlaws camper which has a mini fridge.

Carl

Where does it change from #10 to #12 wire and how many wires do you have..?? Do you have a voltage meter of any kind??

I know lots of questions but in order to answer any question correctly one needs all the details of the question and situation..

 

[EE_Bota]

The issue you get with starting motors is the inrush current which can be as high as 6x the motor nameplate current. This compounded with voltage drop over long runs of undersized wire can burn out motors. A wire rated at 20amps drawing 20amps gives you "x" voltage drop (don't have my code book near) but I you're starting a motor under load an that same wire has say 60amps going through it you have approx "x" voltage drop times 3 so you can see the problem compounds. The reason lights aren't affected as bad is because there is no inrush current to start them. Also power tools normally have no load or not much so they start easy which reduces the inrush current. You will notice they don't have nearly as much 'torque' when on a long undersized cord, this is because of the voltage drop increasing as the load goes up. Air compressors are a great example of this. When starting there is no pressure in the cylinder but it builds pressure quickly so if it doesn't get up to running speed of the motor (which means full hp which the current drops when it reachs synchronous or slip speed) before the pressure builds up you will have a compressor which will humm and do nothing but burn its motor out unless youre lucky and the overload trips or you turn it off.

Edit:
I wrote stuff about a light being a dead short or an instant, and then current decay due to temperature rise, and then I decided that I am not nearly as confident in what I am saying as I am confident it really doesn't matter. So I think what you said is pretty good, though I may differ in some minor points for some lights.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Where does it change from #10 to #12 wire and how many wires do you have..?? Do you have a voltage meter of any kind??

I know lots of questions but in order to answer any question correctly one needs all the details of the question and situation..

10 feet from the meter box is the change over. Where the old relay was. I am wired to code (I believe) with 4 wires (Hot Hot Nuetral Ground) coming out of my box to the 12 guage running to the outlets (old pump)

I not only have a voltage meter but I also have that amp meter that plugs into the outlet (cannot remember the name at the moment). I will give it a go once it stops raining, taking a high amp tool down to see what happens when it all gets turned on.

 

[EddieWalker]

Also im confused by the statement that you ran 12/2 but have 124 volts on each side. Is this the voltage between the neutral and the hot?. Theres no way 12/2 can give you 2 separate 120 volt circuits? am i missing something

thank you

Not at both sides. At the house I have 124 volts when I put a meter on an outlet. I never put a meter on anything out at the gate.

I've run my cement mixer all day long, for quite a few days out there when I built the block for my sign and my gates. I used my chop saw to cut my stone while the cement mixer was running, all on the same wire.

After I was done, I installed some lights and they go on every night at dark. I use LED bulbs, so I'm not using very much power.

Eddie