Bent Top Cylinder Rod

turboviking · Oct 20, 2011

Hello all. I have a JD 4610 with the optional top and tilt hydraulics. They, by the way, are priceless.

I recently bought a Frontier 1276 disc harrow. The harrow came with zero useful instructions. I just attached it and tried to do some work. Shortly the top cylinder started making noise. I took it off to the shop and the shaft was bent. There are three holes in the frame to mount it. It is in the bottom.

What did I do wrong? Is there anyone with great info on using a disc harrow? I am clueless and now poorer.

Any help is - as always - very much appreciated. Thank you in advance. Troy

greg_g · Oct 20, 2011

Unfortunately the sequence is wrong here, because my advice has already been demonstrated by your misfortune. I take my HTL off the tractor(s) for certain 3 point implements, and use a rigid toplink instead. The three point disc harrow is one of them.

//greg//

turboviking · Oct 20, 2011

That should be the answer. But I don't have the top link anymore. I guess I could invest in one. Is there a setting for draft that is prefered when using the disc?

Thanks Greg - Troy

deere36 · Oct 20, 2011

I bought a top cylinder for my 4720 and it worked fine until I used it on my 8 foot Bushhog disc and the cylinder started to leak excessively. I returned it to the dealer because it was only two months old and he said they would replace it but if I continued to use it on heavy implements like the large disc they could not guarantee it.

Larry

beenthere · Oct 20, 2011

Fill us in on why the hyd. top link should not be used for the disc harrow?

Likely it can only bend if in an extended position, which then cannot take the compressive forces delivered by a ground engaging attachment such as the disc harrow or something like a moldboard plow.

However, having the top link in the lower of three holes may also require it to be extended further out, and more vulnerable to bending from compression.

turboviking
I'd be interested in how far out you needed to extend the HTL to get the disc harrow to function while engaged. Sorry to hear of the expensive lesson.
This could extend to possibly cover using a box blade or a dirt blade?

MtnViewRanch · Oct 20, 2011

Just another reason to have your 3pt hydraulic links with bigger dia rods.

Gator6x4 · Oct 20, 2011

It sounds like you drove into a ditch or gully with the disk down and upon entry or exit the rear of the disk was forced upward applying considerable force on the top link. The top link bent. I have seen the rear of the tractor break. A very expensive repair. Top link rod replacement is cheaper than replacing the rear housing. I would not use again I actually decided what caused the rod to bend. As previouslly stated housings are expensive.

turboviking · Oct 20, 2011

Hello, Turboviking here. I don't recall the depth or the disc harrow, or the amout of extension of the rod. I was using the unit on uneven earth. Also I have an MX6 rotary cutter which is very heavy.

I suggest that Gator 6x4 is onto something. And he has a nice gator.

I have the 6x4 as well. I m

ight want to look someday at something with a full hydro and true four wheel drive when I hit the lottery, but that gator is one useful horse manure hauler! Thanks, When I get the plow back on I will report back on this thread. Need a rain first, dirt quite hard now.

HUGS

beenthere · Oct 20, 2011

So the last two posts by Gator and turbo are suggesting that even the fixed top link would have broken something?

I don't think so.
But that is where draft control will sense that compression of the TL and raise the 3 ph accordingly.

On my rotary cutter, I have chain to keep from compressing anything when the rear of the RC raises.

Glen Watkins · Oct 20, 2011

I think this is another place where an HTL could be run in the float position!:laughing:

MtnViewRanch · Oct 20, 2011

Glen Watkins said:
I think this is another place where an HTL could be run in the float position!:laughing:

Unfortunately there are many many tractors that do not have the float option with their rear remotes and or they have a DPOCV on their HTL and a float position does not work with that setup.

greg_g · Oct 21, 2011

x2. Of the 5 tractors I've owned, none had rear hydraulic remotes capable of "floating" a HTL. That's because the rears are typically controlled by a conventional 3-way/4-position valve. To have "float" at those remotes, you'd need a 4-way/4-position control valve. And even if a tractor has a float control valve at the operator seat, it doesn't mean that the feature is extended to the rear remotes. On my John Deere for example, a front loader and mid-mount mower can be set to float, but not the rear SCVs. Any float capability that exists,stops at the solenoids.

Further to the issue of bent HTLs is the tractor end swivel ball. If it's mounted too close to the cylinder, the cylinder can hit the tractor's toplink bracket when forced too far right or left. That in turn transfers force to the ram, which in turn continues to bend in the turns. Three things can help avoid this type damage: (a) buy a HTL that has an extension between the cylinder and the tractor end swivel ball, (2) adjust the lower lift arm side stabilizers so that they'll stop the implement from swinging in turns, (c) lift ground engaging equipment (like disc harrows) during turns.

This advice also applies to conventional toplinks, the difference being that they're a helluva lot cheaper to repair/replace than a HTL.

//greg//

greg_g · Oct 21, 2011

turboviking said:
That should be the answer. But I don't have the top link anymore. I guess I could invest in one. Is there a setting for draft that is prefered when using the disc?

Don't think draft control will help in this particular instance, it's job is to regulate depth. That's vertical force. I'm pretty sure your cylinder rod bent from the horizontal force as you made your turns with the disc harrow still on the ground. And I'd positively either repair the damaged one, or invest in a replacement. I've been a HTL advocate for years now, and wouldn't own a tractor any more without one.

//greg//

Glen Watkins · Oct 21, 2011

Thanks Brian and Greg good info!

turboviking · Apr 10, 2012

Hello, I got the tractor cylinder back, but could not chance ruining it again. I am now plowing with the 3 pt disc harrow using the manual adjusting top link. Working fine. Thanks for all the help from all you guys:thumbsup:

jenkinsph · Apr 10, 2012

I would think a boxblade with rippers extended low would put alot of force against the top link and I haven't had any problems bending a cylinder so far.

For a 3PH disk I would prefer a fixed link as once adjusted it can stay put.

AKfish · Apr 11, 2012

I've never seen rear SCV's with float capability in the JD lineup of tractor's below the 5000 series. And it's only available with the "optional" rear SCV package with the M series and possibly the cab model 5083E, etc.

As well, over the year's of using my TnT setup on my JD110TLB I've also had some "painful" lessons regarding the practical limits of those rear mounted hydraulic cylinders!

Many rear mounted implements (generally the HD ground engagement implements) are best used with the manually adjusted toplink and tilt.

They're cheaper, once you adjust the travel; it stays there and there's alot more clearance between the link and the other rear components of the tractor!

Good investment to make - even with the "fancy dancy" hydraulic TnT!

AKfish

MtnViewRanch · Apr 11, 2012

AKfish said:
I've never seen rear SCV's with float capability in the JD lineup of tractor's below the 5000 series. And it's only available with the "optional" rear SCV package with the M series and possibly the cab model 5083E, etc.

As well, over the year's of using my TnT setup on my JD110TLB I've also had some "painful" lessons regarding the practical limits of those rear mounted hydraulic cylinders!

Many rear mounted implements (generally the HD ground engagement implements) are best used with the manually adjusted toplink and tilt.

They're cheaper, once you adjust the travel; it stays there and there's alot more clearance between the link and the other rear components of the tractor!

Good investment to make - even with the "fancy dancy" hydraulic TnT!

AKfish

May I ask what your painful lessons were? :confused3:

AKfish · Apr 12, 2012

MtnViewRanch said:
May I ask what your painful lessons were? :confused3:

Let's see... are you wondering about the 3rd time I wrecked the top link holder bracket (used to hold the TL cylinder up when not being used) when I elevated the Kuhn rotary rake and the extended cylinder rod smashed into it?!? Of course, the gouges in that shiny chrome cylinder rod are... unsightly - at least it's not leaking - just yet!

Or, the gouges in the cylinder case housing on the tilt cylinder (side link) from the Kuhn rotary disc mower that happened (many times) when the top link pin scraped along the side link cylinder when the mower is on the ground and any little bit of sway link chain slop will allow the TL pin to contact the SL cylinder housing. At least it didn't damage the cylinder rod.

And, there's a problem with the top link housing mashing into the rockshaft arms (large nuts on top of arm) when using the mower. It's a little fuzzy right now - how they clash - but they do; big time! :thumbdown:

Now, whenever I use the disc mower and the rotary rake - I swap out - both the cylinders and go with the manual adjustment links from a 4000 series tractor.

AKfish

greg_g · Apr 12, 2012

Well, at least none of the described issues are the fault of the cylinders. All I read is a series of correctable geometry and procedural anomalies. But to be fair, I don't have a side link on mine.

That said - once the HTL was installed - I immediately removed the OE toplink hook. It was of insufficient size to grab onto the toplink, so I saw no use for it at all. Instead, I use one of those heavy duty black rubber tarp straps like OTR truckers use.

Next, I always make sure that I never raise the lift arms with the HTL extended. Step 1, retract cylinder. Step 2, raise lift arms.

I also faithfully adjust the horizontal side stabilizers for each and every implement I mount on the three point hitch. I never permit more than 2" total side to side movement; 1" in either direction.

And among my various TPH implements, there are a few that - by design - exert higher stress on the toplink. Fortunately, these few are for jobs where adjusting toplink length on the fly are not necessary. For those, I leave a conventional toplink pinned to them permanently. When I need to use those particular implements, I drop the HTL before attaching. Sounds like your disc mower may fall into that category.

//greg//