Beating your bounds.

[dodge man]

It seems like I see some good threads on surveying matters every few weeks on TBN. I am a land surveyor and I thought I would share my take on what a land owners responsibility is in maintaining your boundaries.

I titled this thread, "beating your bounds" and its my understanding this dates back to old English history where the father would go around his boundaries, grab his son by the ankles, hold him upside down and bounce his head up and down on his boundary corners. I doubt this is what actually happened, but the point is they made it a habit of go around there boundaries yearly and maintaining their corners. I don't think I can stress the importance of this, even if you have had your property surveyed. Its important to know where your corners are and maintain them so you can find them.

Another questions people have, should I get my property surveyed? This varies from region to region. Some areas, every time property gets bought and sold, it gets surveyed. This goes for houses in town or rural areas. It is my experience that this in not usually the case. In my area most of the time property gets bought and sold, its DOES NOT get surveyed. As a surveyor, I find this shocking. This is usually a persons most expensive investment, and with the price of farm ground going for over $11,000 acre, it seems like a good idea to get it surveyed. Its often expensive to get land surveyed. I tell people its a viscous cycle, for every property corner I set, one gets knocked out somewhere else. In other words, I'm not really making any headway.

Another reason I say get your property surveyed, is I see all the horror stories. Houses built over the property line, boundary disputes ending up in court, hard feelings between neighbors.

Please don't take this thread as a promotional ad for my line of work, its more advice to maintain your boundaries and to spot problems early. Its also meant to inform people that when you buy a house or a piece of property, to take a look at the boundaries and ask if its been surveyed. Do this before you buy, not after. If you didn't get your property surveyed before you bought it, don't worry about it, most people in your area probably don't.

 

[GPintheMitten]

I like your suggestion to find and maintain your corners.

My question is for a rural area that has been surveyed in the past, and if you get a paper copy of the survey document and can find the corners, why would you get it surveyed again? And if you can't find the corners, is there typically a service you can get for less expense just to find the corner stakes or is it about the same time to get the full survey?

 

[mjw357]

And if you can't find the corners, is there typically a service you can get for less expense just to find the corner stakes or is it about the same time to get the full survey?

Yes you can hire a local surveyor to find the original monuments. The more information you can provide the better. A lot of the expense of a full property survey is time for research. Your legal description or plat of recent survey will help. You can have them quote you a price to locate the existing corners, with an additional cost to reset any destroyed corners. It is very common in farm country to have pins plowed out.

 

[dodge man]

I like your suggestion to find and maintain your corners.

My question is for a rural area that has been surveyed in the past, and if you get a paper copy of the survey document and can find the corners, why would you get it surveyed again? And if you can't find the corners, is there typically a service you can get for less expense just to find the corner stakes or is it about the same time to get the full survey?

Good questions. If its already been surveyed and you can find the corners, there is no real reason to get it done again. The only problem is I have had twice had someone pull a corner and move it. A new survey would uncover this, but this problem in my opinion is rare.

Your second question. If I have surveyed a property before, I will usually go out and just locate the corners again at a much reduced price. If its in town, I have even done this for free if it just takes a few minutes. I usually only do this for the person that originally hired us. This also depends on the age of the original survey. If it was done 50 years ago, it needs surveyed again. If I did it last years, just locating the corners with a few checks is good enough.

 

[phiferpharm]

Dave,

What you say makes sense, and since I bought my property relatively recently (2007), have a survey that is recent. I started to ask a question about my situation in the recent saga that strum456 was going through, but didn't want to intercede in his thread.

Here it is in short form. My land borders my son's property and another neighbor on one side. It had a fence up when I bought it and an access road running down the inside of that fence line. My wife was talking to the neighbor about us redoing some of the fence and he mentioned that I actually had my fence 20 feet inside my property line and that the access road was supposed to run through inside his fence line, directly beside his house.

Here's my question. I don't want to make him move the road to his side- the land in question is mainly scruffy tree growth and scrub brush. It actually forms a little barrier between the two properties, so while it may be 25X400 feet, it is not worth screwing up his layout.

What I do want to do is have him sign an agreement for $1.00 a year that states he is renting the land for as long as he or his children are the property owners of his land and while I or my heirs own mine. While I know you are not a lawyer, does that make sense to you and should I have it noted on a survey?

 

[dodge man]

That makes sense to me. Also record that document in the courthouse in land records so it gives "public notice" on what is going on with the boundaries. As far as noting it on a survey, thats up to you. I'm not sure how much it would cost you. If its fairly inexpensive, I'd say yes.

 

[mjw357]

Here it is in short form. My land borders my son's property and another neighbor on one side. It had a fence up when I bought it and an access road running down the inside of that fence line. My wife was talking to the neighbor about us redoing some of the fence and he mentioned that I actually had my fence 20 feet inside my property line and that the access road was supposed to run through inside his fence line, directly beside his house.

I am having trouble envisioning this. Is this road across your property, and his only access to his property to a public road? If so, he has an easement by prescription, no need to do anything.

 

[toddbailey]

Good advice Dodgeman.

 

[oldnslo]

Well in my case the surveyor or recorder made the mistake that affected 4 pieces of property and was a mess to clean up.

Again not sure who but the same starting point was used for the legal description on two parcels. These two parcels are in the center of a quarter so it also the farm land on both sides. My property and the neighbors both referenced the same quarter section and distances from the corner.

This all happened around 20 years ago. My home was sold three times in that 20 years and the neighbors twice. We, neighbor and I found the problem when I asked for the survey prior to buying the land. I was suspicious when reading the legal and just pacing off starting point put me around 250 ft difference. Turns out it was actually off 218 ft.

In a nut shell, can you trust the legal description? I presume these mistakes are rare but they do happen.

Like Dodgeman says, check before you buy since after the fact is an ever bigger headache.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Are you familiar with the term "quiet survey". I heard it once in my life when neighboring properties had different surveyors and the corners didn't coincide.

Something about surveyors not disputing neighboring corners if not off by a lot? I suppose new tools might be more accurate than old and maybe some surveyors are just more accurate than others.

 

[mjw357]

In a nut shell, can you trust the legal description?

Not entirely, no. They are usually prepared by lawyers.

 

[LBrown59]

It's been my experience that each time a survey is made it results in a different boundary line .

What good is a survey that can simply be changed by the next surveyor that comes along?

Why is it the last survey is assumed to be the correct one?
So you get into your surveys his surveys which results in a he says you say situation with a bunch of expensive worthless papers for both parties.

 

[gengine]

I've heard of a quiet survey! My FIL was putting up a shop next to the property line this summer, and I convinced him to get a survey after the neighbor expressed his concern about the fence line. It turns out, on the north corner the property line is 24' into the neighbors side of the fence, and where the shop was going up, the prop. Line is 8' onto my FIL's side of the fence. The surveyor said he was able to fudge the boundary's a little bit if there is an existing physical boundary such as a fence or a road.

 

[mjw357]

It's been my experience that each time a survey is made it results in a different boundary line .

What good is a survey that can simply be changed by the next surveyor that comes along?

Why is it the last survey is assumed to be the correct one?
So you get into you surveys his surveys which results in a he says you say situation with a bunch of expensive worthless papers for both parties.

A survey is just an educated opinion. And getting your property surveyed does not make what is marked, yours. The legal description contained in your deed is the one that holds water, unless you record a new deed containing that description.

Only a court of law can say who owns what when there is question. If there is a difference of opinion or dispute, evidence and testimony from both sides are weighed, and the judge decides.

 

[dodge man]

A survey is just an educated opinion. And getting your property surveyed does not make what is marked, yours. The legal description contained in your deed is the one that holds water, unless you record a new deed containing that description.

Only a court of law can say who owns what when there is question. If there is a difference of opinion or dispute, evidence and testimony from both sides are weighed, and the judge decides.

You are correct, a survey is a professional opinion on where your boundaries are.

Only a court can say who owns what? Not really. Believe it or not, the land owners are the ones who determine where the boundary is. If I perform a survey and the land owners honor that survey, use my iron pins as the boundaries over a long period of time, that makes my survey good as gold. I once read a case where owners took their dispute to court. They didn't like what the judge decided, so they did something different. There actions actually overruled what the judge decided. Of course the landowners had to come to some kind of standoff or agreement for this to happen.

 

[DAY]

I'm curious: Does GPS change the game?

 

[dodge man]

It's been my experience that each time a survey is made it results in a different boundary line .

What good is a survey that can simply be changed by the next surveyor that comes along?

Why is it the last survey is assumed to be the correct one?
So you get into your surveys his surveys which results in a he says you say situation with a bunch of expensive worthless papers for both parties.

Each time you get a survey done, it results in a different boundary? That shouldn't be the case. Good surveyors won't allow this to happen. Some of this stems from our inaccuracies in measurement. Say I came out and said the distance between two of your corners is 350.00 feet in 1984. In 2012, I survey between the same two corners and get 349.50 feet. Maybe because of newer, better equipment, I get a different number. Does you boundary change because of this. NO! Does your deed change because of this. NO! The iron pins are the boundary and the measurments are secondary.

Your last paragraph opens and entire can of worms. Some surveyors seem to enjoy proving other surveyors wrong. We call these pin cushions. You go out and find 2 or 3 pins, all representing the same corner. My opinoin is that makes us look bad and creates problems. Good surveyors resolve boundary problems, not create them.

 

[LBrown59]

In a nut shell, can you trust the legal description? I presume these mistakes are rare but they do happen.

No : I found this out in 1989 after mom died .
Back in 1965 the state bought a small strip of about 1200 sq'. of the top corner of one of my parents 50 x 100 lots for a right of way for I 77.
I found out in 1989 the county screwed up and deeded the entire 50 x 100 lot to the state instead of just the 1200 sq ft the state bought.
During the entire 24 years from 1965 to 1989 the county had been taxing mom and dad on a 50 x 100 lot the county had taken away from them and given to the state.

Are you familiar with the term "quiet survey". I heard it once in my life when neighboring properties had different surveyors and the corners didn't coincide.

I don't know about that but the County is still billing me for taxes on a piece of land that does not exist.

 

[dodge man]

Are you familiar with the term "quiet survey". I heard it once in my life when neighboring properties had different surveyors and the corners didn't coincide.

Something about surveyors not disputing neighboring corners if not off by a lot? I suppose new tools might be more accurate than old and maybe some surveyors are just more accurate than others.

I've heard of "Quiet Title". I assume a Quiet Survey would be the action needed to Quiet Title. Its basically an action to resolve a boundary that is in dispute or unknown.

 

[dodge man]

Do mistakes occur in legal descriptions? Of course they do. Think about it, if property get sold several times over a period of 100 years, all that it takes is one typo. I have seen entire lines of a legal descriptions get left off. The beauty of most land records is you can go back and look at the old description for the same property and look for mistakes.