Septic Systems - Aerobic vs. Conventional

[dmccarty]

Yes, we had a waste disposal in the kitchen. We used it but as you mentioned, they are frowned upon in septic system use. We had always used one living in the city so it was just common practice. We learned the hard way that septic systems don't like to have food waste going into them.

With our large family (5+), we had a lot of use. It just overworked the septic. Which brings me to the main point. Since we are currently living on a city sewer should we just stay put and forget the whole idea of going back to the country and living on a septic?

Maybe with our large family and the cooking involved, we just are not meant to live in a rural spot on a septic. If a septic can't handle some food waste, along with a family of 5, then maybe our lifestyle is more suited for city sewers.

Five people on a septic system should not be an issue with a properly designed and installed system. We have four in the house and when my parents visit, six and we have never had a problem.

The only thing that should go into a septic system, that did not go through a human body, is toilet paper. A disposer is nice to have but we have lived without one without a problem. We either compost the waste or toss it in the garbage. One of our local cities has talked about banning disposer because of the sewer clogs they cause.

If you cannot stop using a disposer then yes, you should stay in the city.

Country living is going to require other changes in life compared to the city. We do not have garbage pickup which is a good thing since I get to take the garbage to the dump when it is needed not when the service is scheduled nor do I not dump trash all over the place like the garbage pickup did all of the time.

We are on a well. Water service is my problem to deal with not the city. But it is my water and not full of noxious chemicals. If a tree falls on my road I get to remove said tree or pay to have it removed. I cannot call the city or county. We do not have leaf pickup either. There is no they to maintain the road. It is on us.

Frankly these are not really issues for us. We were tired of the city noise. Loud and rude neighbors. Crime. City politics. Traffic. High taxes. Our kids being used as pawns in the schools for other people politics and issues.

Later,
Dan

 

[LBrown59]

Years ago we had a septic system when we lived in a different area and it was a nightmare.
1*The leach field failed and we had nothing but problems.
From what I have read, aerobic systems cost more but they do a better job of cleaning out the effluent BEFORE it gets to the leach field.
2* Conventional or an aerobic systems allow dirtier effluent to reach the leach field which in turn can clog the lines and make the system fail.
3*Is it true that aerobic systems do a better job of preventing leach field failures?

1*That problem was solved when the aerobic system came along to eliminate leach fields .
Leach fields have always been the flaw in any system and we were free of that until the powers that be reintroduced the problem by requiring leach fields which brought us back to square one .
Untill the leach field is taken out of the picture there will be problems with any system .
2*True for conventional but not so with aerobic.
3*Yes If you don't install a leach field.

I have an aerobic system with a leach field. Works pretty good.
4* One of the downsides is you have to have electricity 24x7 to pump air into the system.
5*I understand now they put a regular septic tank in front of the system to help with settling out solids and then the aerobic system after that.
6*Still preferable over the sand mound they would have had to build but maybe not by much.

4*You don't need power 24/7
5*That's a waist of time/money because the leach field is the problem .
Eliminate the leach bed and solve the problem .
6*A mound or a leach field is part of the problem not the solution .

7*Something to think about would be power outages. If you plan to run a well off generator etc. you would also need to run this pump and thus need a way to get genny power to it. Might be easier to wire that in when installing.

7* That's no big deal because there is no need for 24/7 elect.

8*I mentioned my brother putting in the aerobic system for $5,000.
.

8* My current system cost me a whopping 750 bucks.

 

[creekbend]

I have never seen or heard of an aerobic system being used in NH. Everyone around here uses a conventional septic system with a tank and leach field. The conventional systems are pretty fool proof but like anything they require maintenance and care to make them last.

When we had our leach field installed ten years ago the contractor told me to take a packet of bread yeast, mix it in a glass of hot water and dump it down the drain a few times a year to put good bacteria in the system. I've done this every year and never had a problem. Eight years into the system I had it pumped out(state recomends pumping the tank every 3 years) and the guy doing it said it didn't look like it even needed to be pumped out.

I just had our septic tank pumped today at around 3:00 pm this evening and the owner told me the same thing in regards to Yeast. When I inquired about additives, he advised me to get powdered yeast. He said that I could get it at Walmart. He told me to flush two tablespoons down the toilet once a month. He advised me that this method was much cheaper than using the other additives on the market. He adamantly stood by his convictions in recommending the use of yeast. He was the business owner and had been pumping septic systems since 1993. I had never heard of utilizing this additive before, but he convinced me of its merits and I will definitely try it.

 

[TRR]

I've heard that a sink disposer is a no-no for a septic tank. However, we had one for 29 years, 5 people, and never pumped the tank.

Having said that, the rest of the story is: The drain field failed the 2nd year because filter fabric was not used and the drain field pipes filled with dirt. Required a new drain field. We also have 2 tanks, one for gray and one for black. After the initial problem with the field, never had another issue with it.

 

[Pettrix]

1*
3*Yes If you don't install a leach field.


8* My current system cost me a whopping 750 bucks.

How did your system cost only $750? Is it aerobic?

Out here in AZ one needs to have a leach field by law. If they don't, I believe the engineered system costs them $30k. :confused2:

From what I have learned and researched, septic system design changes have been slow to implement and counties are slow to adapt to changes.

So far, here is where I stand:

* I need a 2,000 GAL tank, while over-sized by what is required, having the larger tank gives me more reserve and gives the decomposition process more time before having to leave and enter the effluent chamber

* Aerating the effluent chamber makes a BIG difference in how clean the effluent is and breaks down the waste much faster than an anaerobic system

* Aerating & Filtering the effluent PRIOR having it go into the leach field helps keep the field lines clear

 

[LBrown59]

1*How did your system cost only $750? Is it aerobic?
2*Out here in AZ one needs to have a leach field by law.
If they don't I believe the engineered system costs them $30k. :confused2:
3*From what I have learned and researched, septic system design changes have been slow to implement .
4*Counties are slow to adapt to changes.

So far, here is where I stand:

5* Aerating the effluent chamber makes a BIG difference in how clean the effluent is and breaks down the waste much faster than an anaerobic system
6* Aerating & Filtering the effluent PRIOR to having it go into the leach field helps keep the field lines clear.

1*I put it in in 1971.
2*This is the problem law requieres an enpensive flawed system .
3*Everything they have changed and implemented since 1971 has been a step backwards.
4*To the contrary counties have been to quick to jump on the change band wagon and are enforcing neledless and worthless changes only to drive up the cost of an inferior system .

5*I doubt if yours is any cleaner than mine.
6* But they can and or do plug up because there is no drain for them .

 

[Bigfoot62]

I was a licensed septic system installer for years. Could you please clarify something?

. . . The perc test showed an "absorption rate of .32" . . .

Is that a percollation rate of 0.32" per hour?

If so, you probably don't have enough land to lay a leach field that will work. Less than 1/3 inch per hour is nothing. Aerobic or anerobic, you will have trouble with a leach field. You would have to use an alternative effluent disposal. (example: holding tank and sprinkler system behind an aerobic plant, or an oxidation pond behind a septic tank)

I found this device, which claims to help conventional septic tanks from failing:
Septic Tank - Septic System - Septic Tank System

It basically aerates and makes the system aerobic.

Putting an air pump on an anaerobic system that doesn't work, will just give you an aerobic system that doesn't work.
BTW, buying bacteria is a waste of money. Period. Human waste is full of bacteria. Just don't kill it. (with grease, chlorine, ammonia, anti-bacterial detergents, etc)

I wonder if getting a larger tank (2,000 or even 3,000 gallons) would help my situation?

Larger tanks are better. It gives you more storage room for solids, and the breakdown of solids takes time.

BUT, it still goes back to the absorbtion rate of the soil. If the soil won't soak up the liquid, the leach field will fill up, then the tank will back up.

. . . In my opinion as an engineer, . . .

If the soil and location supports a traditional gravity feed system and it's installed and maintained properly, it should give you at least 30-40 years of trouble free service (and likely more).

The main motivation to go with an alternative system would be in marginal soils or install locations where a traditional system won't work well or fit in the available space. It's generally not done for reliability, as these systems have more complexity, not less. . . .

He nailed it! :thumbsup:

 

[Pettrix]

I was a licensed septic system installer for years. Could you please clarify something?

Is that a percollation rate of 0.32" per hour?

If so, you probably don't have enough land to lay a leach field that will work. Less than 1/3 inch per hour is nothing. Aerobic or anerobic, you will have trouble with a leach field. You would have to use an alternative effluent disposal. (example: holding tank and sprinkler system behind an aerobic plant, or an oxidation pond behind a septic tank)

The report stated that the percolation rate of 32 achieved (no decimal point) and a soil absorption rate of .36 achieved. With a 3% grade slope. The county stated that I have been APPROVED for a conventional septic system.

Putting an air pump on an anaerobic system that doesn't work, will just give you an aerobic system that doesn't work.
BTW, buying bacteria is a waste of money. Period. Human waste is full of bacteria. Just don't kill it. (with grease, chlorine, ammonia, anti-bacterial detergents, etc)

Larger tanks are better. It gives you more storage room for solids, and the breakdown of solids takes time.

BUT, it still goes back to the absorbtion rate of the soil. If the soil won't soak up the liquid, the leach field will fill up, then the tank will back up.

Would pumping air into an anaerobic system that DOES WORK, will it give me an aerobic system that works better?

What system would you recommend that wouldn't break the bank? Is the Orenco AdvanTex setup good? Or should I just go with the 2,000 GAL tank (2 chamber) with just a conventional gravity fed leach field w/ aeration in the 1st chamber of the tank?

 

[Bigfoot62]

The report stated that the percolation rate of 32 achieved (no decimal point) and a soil absorption rate of .36 achieved. With a 3% grade slope. The county stated that I have been APPROVED for a conventional septic system.

If you have been approved for a conventional septic tank and field line system, that's what I would put in. As already pointed out, conventional systems are the most trouble-free and need the least maintanence.
I'm not sure what the numbers mean, here in LA, we go by inches per hour.

Would pumping air into an anaerobic system that DOES WORK, will it give me an aerobic system that works better?

I wouldn't recommend it. Aerobic systems are designed differently from conventional septic tanks.

What system would you recommend that wouldn't break the bank? Is the Orenco AdvanTex setup good? Or should I just go with the 2,000 GAL tank (2 chamber) with just a conventional gravity fed leach field w/ aeration in the 1st chamber of the tank?

I'm not familiar with that brand. If you must put in a mechanical plant, I would suggest a NORWECO. They've been building wastewater treatment systems, both commercial and residential, for over 30 years. I have installed a few, and they are really good systems. You will need to contact a local authorized installer.

 

[jinman]

I'm not familiar with that brand. If you must put in a mechanical plant, I would suggest a NORWECO. They've been building wastewater treatment systems, both commercial and residential, for over 30 years. I have installed a few, and they are really good systems. You will need to contact a local authorized installer.

I have the Norweco Singulair system. Here is a link to their site where you can download brochures.

 

[Bigfoot62]

I have the Norweco Singulair system. Here is a link to their site where you can download brochures.

Jim,
Thanks for the link. That's the one I'm talking about. :thumbsup:

 

[Pettrix]

If you have been approved for a conventional septic tank and field line system, that's what I would put in. As already pointed out, conventional systems are the most trouble-free and need the least maintanence.

I'm not familiar with that brand. If you must put in a mechanical plant, I would suggest a NORWECO. They've been building wastewater treatment systems, both commercial and residential, for over 30 years. I have installed a few, and they are really good systems. You will need to contact a local authorized installer.

I went to the NORWECO site and this is what they had to say about conventional/anaerobic systems:

"The slower metabolism of the anaerobic bacteria dictates that the wastewater be held several days in order to achieve even a nominal 50% reduction in organic material. That is why septic tanks are always followed by some type of effluent treatment and disposal process. The advantage of using the anaerobic process is that electromechanical equipment is not required. Anaerobic bacteria release hydrogen sulfide as well as methane gas, both of which can create hazardous conditions. Even as the anaerobic action begins in the collection lines of a sewer system, deadly hydrogen sulfide or explosive methane gas can accumulate and be life threatening."

They had this so say about aerobic septic systems:

"The metabolism of aerobes is much higher than for anaerobes. This increase means that 90% fewer organisms are needed compared to the anaerobic process, or that treatment is accomplished in 90% less time. This provides a number of advantages including a higher percentage of organic removal. The by-products of aerobic bacteria are carbon dioxide and water. "


They are basically backing up what I stated before. That anaerobic systems are nowhere near as efficient as aerobic systems. An aerobic system dissolves the waste in 90% less time than an anaerobic system. How and what kind of aerobic system one uses, that is open to debate as there are many aerobic systems, some better than others.

This takes me back to square one. All these companies are in business to sell their products, which is fine and understandable. I don't claim for a minute that if one requires an engineered system to simply install an aerator. What I am stating is that if one has been given an "OK" for a conventional system, there would be no harm in taking that conventional/anaerobic and adding aeration, creating an aerobic system, which will make the conventional system run 90% more efficiently.

An $800 aerator with a $7,000 conventional system VS. a $25,000 system is what I am facing. I don't see any harm in introducing aerobic bacteria into a conventional system and all the studies back my premise and it costs me only $800.

 

[jinman]

An $800 aerator with a $7,000 conventional system VS. a $25,000 system is what I am facing. I don't see any harm in introducing aerobic bacteria into a conventional system and all the studies back my premise and it costs me only $800.

So, is this $800 aerator going to run on solar power or conventional wired electricity? What is it going to cost to get electrical power to the site? Once you have the aerator motor, how will you mount it into the tank? At what depth will it operate? Will it just stir up solids and keep them in suspension so that your leach field gets filled and stops up?

Aerobic systems are engineered to make sure the solids stay where they are supposed to be and clean effluent goes to the leach field or sprinkler heads. My aerobic system has a fine filtration system to remove solids and treat the effluent with a tiny bit of chlorine to stop any bacterial activity inside the collection tank.

My point is that if a conventional system could be easily improved as you describe, it would be a common thing. I think it is not an easy thing and you will end up with an expensive mess on your hands that is unmantainable and something else to worry with on a regular basis. If you have been approved for a conventional system, why don't you just put that extra $800 into a superior leach field or larger tanks and have something that will really make a difference?

I know you want the best and I applaud you for that. I just think your premise that you can have a pseudo-aerobic system by simply adding an aerator pump is false. If you can find somebody who has done as you suggest and is happy with the result, I will happily eat my words and be your greatest cheerleader. In the end, I think all of us want to give you the best advice.:thumbsup:

 

[Bigfoot62]

So, is this $800 aerator going to run on solar power or conventional wired electricity? What is it going to cost to get electrical power to the site? Once you have the aerator motor, how will you mount it into the tank? At what depth will it operate? Will it just stir up solids and keep them in suspension so that your leach field gets filled and stops up?

Aerobic systems are engineered to make sure the solids stay where they are supposed to be and clean effluent goes to the leach field or sprinkler heads. My aerobic system has a fine filtration system to remove solids and treat the effluent with a tiny bit of chlorine to stop any bacterial activity inside the collection tank.

My point is that if a conventional system could be easily improved as you describe, it would be a common thing. I think it is not an easy thing and you will end up with an expensive mess on your hands that is unmantainable and something else to worry with on a regular basis. If you have been approved for a conventional system, why don't you just put that extra $800 into a superior leach field or larger tanks and have something that will really make a difference?

I know you want the best and I applaud you for that. I just think your premise that you can have a pseudo-aerobic system by simply adding an aerator pump is false. If you can find somebody who has done as you suggest and is happy with the result, I will happily eat my words and be your greatest cheerleader. In the end, I think all of us want to give you the best advice.:thumbsup:

Jim, good explanation. :thumbsup: Saved me a bunch of typing.

 

[Pettrix]

So, is this $800 aerator going to run on solar power or conventional wired electricity? What is it going to cost to get electrical power to the site? Once you have the aerator motor, how will you mount it into the tank? At what depth will it operate? Will it just stir up solids and keep them in suspension so that your leach field gets filled and stops up?

The aerator pump runs (24/7) on electricity and costs $5 a month to run. I actually run aerator pumps on my Koi pond. So I know how they work and the costs involved in running them. They are very efficient and don't take much electricity to run.

I don't have to run power to the site. The aerator pump sits inside a garage and a buried PVC air line runs to the site. The aerator does NOT get mounted to the tank. It sits indoors (garage) and the air line goes outside and is trenched to the septic tank.

The actual air diffuser sits at the bottom of the 1st chamber. Seen here:
Septic Tank Aerator, Septic Problems, Septic Repair, Septic Maintenance, Drainfield Repair, Septic Tank Diffuser

The air diffuser sits in the 1st chamber and the effluent/liquid moves to the 2nd chamber where any solids that got through will settle and if anything tries to get out the 2nd chamber drain line to the leach lines, the effluent filter will stop it. No different than in a conventional tank that is NOT aerated.

My point is that if a conventional system could be easily improved as you describe, it would be a common thing. I think it is not an easy thing and you will end up with an expensive mess on your hands that is unmantainable and something else to worry with on a regular basis. If you have been approved for a conventional system, why don't you just put that extra $800 into a superior leach field or larger tanks and have something that will really make a difference?

Septic Tank Aerator, Septic Problems, Septic Repair, Septic Maintenance, Drainfield Repair, Septic Tank Diffuser

The fact is that a conventional system can and does get improved with simple aeration. I actually got off of the phone with an engineer (20 years) in the septic industry and he was VERY OPEN and honest and completely backed what I was stating. He said the reason it is not a "common thing" is that it all comes down to $$$$ and keeping people in business.

We are all grown men here, we experienced life, can you claim that everything that industries do is for the BETTERMENT of the user? Of course not. Things we buy are a lot of times made cheaply, why? Because it will make you buy it again, and again, and again, plus the cost of repairs and maintenance keeps them in business.

http://www.septicaerator.com/FAQs.html

I know you want the best and I applaud you for that. I just think your premise that you can have a pseudo-aerobic system by simply adding an aerator pump is false. If you can find somebody who has done as you suggest and is happy with the result, I will happily eat my words and be your greatest cheerleader. In the end, I think all of us want to give you the best advice.:thumbsup:

It is not false. The engineer I spoke to, who was candid told me that the systems do work. I have contacted people who utilized the system and they said it was the best $$ they spent on their septic systems. It made a night and day difference on their conventional systems.

Once again, if the site does NOT pass for a conventional system, then this aerator is NOT a fix for them and they will require a completely engineered aerobic system. But if the site passes for a conventional system, adding aeration and creating an aerobic environment within the tank WILL help the system function 100x better due to the aerobic bacteria.

Even the companies that were recommended to me, they all utilize aeration, some even utilize the same air diffusers I am looking at.

 

[Pettrix]

In the end it comes down to what works better and how much $$$ does it cost.

I have 3 options:

1 - Install the conventional system that is NOT aerated and have a system that is very inefficient, produces deadly gases, and because of it's anaerobic design will eventually fail. Cost = $7,000

2 - Install the NORWECO or similar system and spend high monthly bills running the mechanical pumps and all the required power needs they use. Require costly mandatory yearly inspection contracts. Have to clean and inspect it every 3-6 months. Cost - $25,000

3 - Install the conventional system that IS aerated that will produce 90% better efficiency over the anaerobic setup. Spend $5 a month in electricity. Cost = $7,800

That is what I am faced with. Sure, the NORWECO or similar $20K+ systems are very efficient but I don't need an engineered system on my lot. So why spend another $20k + high electric bills every month on something I don't need? That leaves me will options #1 or #3. Option #3 is my best option.

I have yet to talk to someone who used that setup that hates it or has had problems because of it. If I do, then I will rethink my position but so far I yet to find anyone who had things go bad because of the aeration.

 

[jinman]

Well, it sounds to me like you have made up your mind. I am not convinced you will have a less trouble-free system by adding what consists of basically a fish tank aerator bubbling air up through the biomass. Perhaps I am wrong. The visual illustrations used to demonstrate a need for this aerator are of poorly designed or poorly maintained systems. This tactic is not unknown in marketing of many products. If people would separate their gray water and not put so much grease, soap scum, bleach, or other bacteria killing materials down their drains, they would see far less problems. That said, I just hope your system will be trouble free and you'll do a separate gray water drain. I assure you that the money spent on keeping gray drain water out of the septic will be worth every penny you spend and cost nothing to maintain over the long haul.

BTW: My aerator motor is not costly. If it adds $10 to my monthly electric bill, I would be surprised. Probably the pump that feeds my sprinklers about once daily for 10-12 minutes is going to use as much as the aerator pump. My first aerator pump lasted 7 years, so they are long-lived. I think you will find your air pump lasts no longer and uses only slightly less power.

My aerobic system was installed in 2000 at a price of $6500 and county fees. That included the first two years of service contract. My service contract now costs me $225 per year, but I could get it cheaper if I didn't use my current contractor. I don't mind paying a little more for the reliable and professional people he hires to do my service. I'm extremely pleased with my system as you can tell.

Please keep us informed. It will take awhile to prove the concept works, but I for one would like to see photos and a description of your installation. Your company is not the only company doing such conversions. If this practice proves to have long-term benefits, one day it may be a requirement.

 

[Pettrix]

Well, it sounds to me like you have made up your mind. I am not convinced you will have a less trouble-free system by adding what consists of basically a fish tank aerator bubbling air up through the biomass. Perhaps I am wrong.

If the aeration causes problems (which I don't see how), then I will simply turn it off and keep it as a conventional anaerobic system, which it originally was anyways. No harm no foul. I can take the aerator pump and use it on my Koi pond.

BTW: My aerator motor is not costly. If it adds $10 to my monthly electric bill, I would be surprised. Probably the pump that feeds my sprinklers about once daily for 10-12 minutes is going to use as much as the aerator pump. My first aerator pump lasted 7 years, so they are long-lived. I think you will find your air pump lasts no longer and uses only slightly less power.

I was told by the company rep himself that to run a NORWECO system is around $25-$40 dollars a month, depending on utility rates. The aerator pump costs only $5 a month and every 5 years you replace the diaphragm assembly which costs $40 and takes 30 minutes. I do it on my Koi Pond pumps every 2-3 years.

My aerobic system was installed in 2000 at a price of $6500 and county fees. That included the first two years of service contract. My service contract now costs me $225 per year, but I could get it cheaper if I didn't use my current contractor. I don't mind paying a little more for the reliable and professional people he hires to do my service. I'm extremely pleased with my system as you can tell.

The other system was nowhere near your $6,500 amount, it was bordering $20,000 + with installation, delivery, etc. Add the annual service contract which was around $500 a year. It was not cheap, that is for sure.

Please keep us informed. It will take awhile to prove the concept works, but I for one would like to see photos and a description of your installation. Your company is not the only company doing such conversions. If this practice proves to have long-term benefits, one day it may be a requirement.

I will and I do appreciate the help and comments. I understand where you are coming from but I believe there is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Pettrix]

If you must put in a mechanical plant, I would suggest a NORWECO. They've been building wastewater treatment systems, both commercial and residential, for over 30 years. I have installed a few, and they are really good systems. You will need to contact a local authorized installer.

What were people paying for the NORWECO systems back when you installed them?

After the final treatment, is the effluent flowed by gravity into a leach field?

 

[Pettrix]

BTW, buying bacteria is a waste of money. Period. Human waste is full of bacteria. Just don't kill it. (with grease, chlorine, ammonia, anti-bacterial detergents, etc)

NORWECO actually sells and recommends bacteria treatments:

Bio-Gem

http://www.norweco.com/pdf/perc_bro.pdf