Need some suggestions

[Kernopelli]

My son put the tractor (Mitsubishi MTE2000D) on the trailer this A.M. and shut it off to chain it down. When he tried to restart it to pull some chains tight the starter engaged fine but nothing, the engine WILL NOT turn over.....as in appears locked up. When the starter engages the flywheel it appears strong and attempting to spin the engine hard. I took the glow plugs out to minimize compression.....nothing. Put a ratchet and 3' cheater bar on the crank pulley nut and tried to turn it over by hand and she won't budge. I moved all the hydraulic valves around to take any pressure off the hydraulic system just to make sure there wasn't some kind of issue going on there (don't know what that would be but it occurred to me at the time). I am baffled. The tractor started easily w/o using the glow plugs this A.M. despite cool temps, no unusual noises, it has been running perfectly, everything in order on fluids, etc. How can it go from running perfectly to appearing locked up between shutting it off and trying to restart it shortly after? Ideas? Really don't want to drop the oil pan first thing but realize I may have to get to that pretty quick. At this point, just getting it off the trailer, taking the loader and subframe off then moving the tractor back into the dry to work on it is going to be a pretty good chore. What are your ideas on this?

 

[duwem]

Parking brake on and clutch stuck engaged with trans in gear?

 

[Kernopelli]

Parking brake on and clutch stuck engaged with trans in gear?

Unfortunately already checked and that was a no. I had a back up (new in box) starter that I just put on in case I was wrong about the old one. No good there either. I can tell it just barely will move the crank pulley. In the morning I'm going to try to turn it by hand again (by using ratchet or wrench on crank pulley nut). I'll take the glow plugs out again to take compression out of the equation when I try.....just how hard should it be to turn over that way?

 

[duwem]

With no glow plugs it should turn over VERY easily. Try pushing the clutch in if it doesnt.

 

[284 International]

With no glow plugs it should turn over VERY easily. Try pushing the clutch in if it doesnt.

What he said. If you can't move it, glow plugs or not, with a 3 foot breaker bar, there's something jamming things VERY tightly. Start simple, and work toward hard.

Make sure the transmission is free, first. If you have to, jack the rear end up, put it in 2wd, lock the differential, and step on the clutch while spinning a tire. If you can't move it, the trouble is in your transmission. I've had a tractor lock up on me when I broke a shift fork, which effectively put the tractor in 2 gears at the same time, and locked it up solidly. If your clutch is also binding or stuck, then your starter won't be able to move the crankshaft. Make sure the PTO is in neutral, too.

You should be able to turn it with a regular socket wrench, albeit slowly. With the glow plugs out, it should move fairly easily, even by hand on the harmonic balancer.

As you said, it didn't all of a sudden gall the pistons to the sleeves.

Good luck! It's worrisome to have sudden, unexplainable trouble.

 

[Kernopelli]

Well, got it unchained and the FEL bucket off the trailer floor so I could move the tractor around. Yesterday I had checked about a million times that the trans was in neutral and today was able to roll it a foot or so back and forth on the trailer and this confirms it is....put it in gear and can't roll it. The PTO turns freely when in neutral and I engaged the PTO and tried turning it ( and thus the engine) with a large pipe wrench (with tractor trans in neutral) and it won't budge. Turning crankshaft by hand was a no go again as well.

I think it's safe to assume at this point that I can eliminate transmission issues. Clutch feels good, but when I get the tractor off the trailer, I'll put it in gear and try pushing the clutch in and make sure there is nothing binding there and engagement/disengagement is right when we tow it to the garage.

I've really just had a few minutes to mess with it today. To drop the oil pan, I have to take the loader and subframe off. I assume a look at the bottom end is going to be my next move unless someone has a better plan of action. Back to work tomorrow (25th) and having worked double shifts nearly every day this month......probably won't be any different this coming week and it'll be late next week before I even take it off the trailer. Open to any and all ideas.

 

[duwem]

Starter isnt stuck engaged or something? That would make it hard to turn over....

 

[Kernopelli]

Starter isnt stuck engaged or something? That would make it hard to turn over....

No, I had a relatively new solenoid on the starter and it's working correctly. I had run across a very good price on a new factory starter a while back so I bought it to have on hand and I put it on yesterday just to make certain it wasn't a starter issue and it didn't help the issue. Definitely not a starter issue.

I still can't imagine the "coincidence" of an apparently well running engine locking up at the precise moment it is being shut off but at this point in time I just don't have another explanation for the symptoms.

 

[284 International]

I think your plan of attack is good. Make sure that pushing the clutch pedal in lets the tractor roll freely. There must have been something else occur between shutdown and the attempted restart, because it doesn't seem possible that anything occurred while the engine was off and not operating.

Is there any chance the tractor ran for an extended time at a steep angle (driving up onto the trailer?) and may have starved for oil somehow? Does the oil smell burned?

If the clutch disconnects the flywheel from the transmission, the realistic choices are that either something is jamming the pistons from going up or down, or that something has bound together in the rod or main bearings, or in one of the gear sets at the flywheel or the timing gears. I'm assuming you tried it in both directions, but I'd check with a regular socket wrench both directions of rotation if you haven't-perhaps it's loose one way and not the other.

You might try posting this question in the general parts and repairs section; whatever this issue is will not be Mitsubishi-specific. I really hope you get this figured out. Good luck, and merry Christmas!

 

[Kernopelli]

[/B][/B]

Is there any chance the tractor ran for an extended time at a steep angle (driving up onto the trailer?) and may have starved for oil somehow? Does the oil smell burned?



Naw... but my son has been using the tractor for a pretty good size landscape job for the local school district and during the cold weather we were having, I told him to just let the tractor idle and stay warm rather than shutting it off and sitting then potentially having starting issues. So during the coarse of a day it may have idled for half an hour then be used to move material for a while.....idle for for 45 mins, move material etc. I don't think the tractor has spent any extended time running on an extreme angle but it has spent recent extended time idling repeatedly. Only "unusual"event I can think of.





If the clutch disconnects the flywheel from the transmission, the realistic choices are that either something is jamming the pistons from going up or down, or that something has bound together in the rod or main bearings, or in one of the gear sets at the flywheel or the timing gears. I'm assuming you tried it in both directions, but I'd check with a regular socket wrench both directions of rotation if you haven't-perhaps it's loose one way and not the other.



Yes, both directions. I agree on the rest...and that's what scares me.





You might try posting this question in the general parts and repairs section; whatever this issue is will not be Mitsubishi-specific. I really hope you get this figured out. Good luck, and merry Christmas!

Probably will post in parts and repairs, wanted to try here first in case my frantic thinking was making me overlook something easy/obvious (not as much exposure here :ashamed: ) Then again, right now I don't even see the need. I'm so disgusted....and certain that I'm going to be tearing the engine down that I'm not sure there's any reason to.

Merry Christmas to you as well and thanks to the respondents for their time and efforts, I'll keep you posted!

 

[lens12]

Did the hydraulic hose to the loader become disconnected? It will be hard to turn over with the hydraulic dead heading.

 

[Kernopelli]

Did the hydraulic hose to the loader become disconnected? It will be hard to turn over with the hydraulic dead heading.

Will have time to mess with things a little bit later today. I haven't checked any QD's yet but will later today. I did move the joystick and 3PT hitch control levers around in an attempt to relieve any hydraulic pressure on the system. Thank you for bringing this up Len. You got me a rod when my son hydrolocked this same engine by taking it for a swim in the pond 4-5 yrs ago, but I pray to God you're not getting me new parts for a major overhaul soon. I don't mind throwing you business from time to time but I always thought this issue would be at least 1500 hrs later than this.

 

[Kernopelli]

Took valve cover off and push rods don't appear bent, valves can be pushed by stems freely and everything else looks right. Dropped oil pan and from the limited amount that I can see of:

Cam and lobes- appears OK
Rods/pistons/cylinder walls-appears OK
Crank-appears OK

Loosened the 4 crankshaft bearing caps thinking that if bearings were seized this might possibly allow me to turn crank by hand- crank still wont budge.

Haven't taken head off because I still want to try the easy stuff and I suspect a new head gasket is going to be pricey and might be hard to get.

I guess next thing will be to take timing cover off and make sure gears are OK and take hydro pump off and make sure it hasn't somehow imploded. I did post in parts and repair forum for a little more detailed explanation of what I've done. Hopefully I'll get a few more hits and more advice on the easy stuff.

 

[284 International]

You could try loosening the rod caps too, at this point. I don't know of anything else that could reasonably be at fault. If the transmission is free, it's the not the flywheel side bound up. If the glow plugs have been removed, there is not incompressible liquid locking up the cylinders. If the hydraulic pump is free, it isn't binding there.

The remaining suspects seem to be the rod bearings and/or reciprocating parts, or the gears on the camshaft. If it's easy, check the cam gears. If it were mine, at this point I'd just pull the rod caps and, with a wooden dowel, see if I could drive each piston up any in the cylinder. Once all three were free, the crankshaft either has to turn, or is the culprit.

 

[evan price]

Stupid thought, here, but there isn't possibly a belt-drive accessory seized up like the alternator or water pump? And the belt isn't slipping?

 

[Kernopelli]

You could try loosening the rod caps too, at this point. I don't know of anything else that could reasonably be at fault. If the transmission is free, it's the not the flywheel side bound up. If the glow plugs have been removed, there is not incompressible liquid locking up the cylinders. If the hydraulic pump is free, it isn't binding there.

The remaining suspects seem to be the rod bearings and/or reciprocating parts, or the gears on the camshaft. If it's easy, check the cam gears. If it were mine, at this point I'd just pull the rod caps and, with a wooden dowel, see if I could drive each piston up any in the cylinder. Once all three were free, the crankshaft either has to turn, or is the culprit.

Haven't had time to get back out in the shop due to work schedule. I've gotten some good advice here at TBN. I think I'll be doing exactly what you suggested, as well as checking crank and rod end play. I think between taking the timing cover off to check the gears, seeing if there is any end play in crank and rods and trying to move the pistons in the bores, I'll be able to figure out what the problem is without having to remove the head..... of course depending upon what I find, I may be removing the head anyway. Hope to have it figured out by this weekend at latest.

Stupid thought, here, but there isn't possibly a belt-drive accessory seized up like the alternator or water pump? And the belt isn't slipping?

I've ruled out those possibilities and unfortunately it appears to be a bigger issue.

 

[richard60]

I had a generator that was running fine, shut it off and then it seemed froze up. Turnrd out to be carbon build up in the head. Cleaned it out and it ran fine. The long idling period makes me suspicious. if nothing else it's easy to pull the head.

 

[duwem]

Diesels will run at idle forever and never get ruined unlike a gas engine.

 

[Kernopelli]

I posted this in parts and repair too. Finally got in garage today and first I checked the crank for end play and it was good. Checked rods for lateral play and #1 and #2 were fine, get to #3 and doesn't budge regardless of how I try. The piston was sitting right at TDC so I felt forced to pull the head. Got it off and with some persuasion was able to get the rod cap off then knock #3 piston up and out of the top and presto...crank spins free. You can see that there was a heat issue. I haven't seen 360* on the journal yet but I didn't see any gouging....just bluing from heat. Not sure why this end wasn't getting oil? I am surprised after seeing this as there is no question that this was the issue but wouldn't have thought that it could seize.....and remain seized without more signs of damage. What course of action is advised from here?

 

[Kernopelli]

Well, It's been a long time since I posted about this and thought I'd put this one to bed. Projects move slowly around here....I worked approx. 1700 hrs. of O.T. last year ( 2012) and '13 is on that same track. Add in family time, church, rental business etc. and the tractor comes way down my to-do list.

Turned out that a rod bearing had spun. Sometime early in '12 I had the crank turned....... and everything sat idle.

In Oct '12 I had a little vacation time to use, so....I went through the entire engine. Although they looked pretty good, I reground the valves and seats and put in new stem seals, put a fresh crosshatch on the cylinders, installed new rings, obviously put in new crank and rod bearings and buttoned it up with new gaskets. Test fired it...... and everything sat idle.

In march '13 I took an afternoon and put the engine in frame....and there it sat.

Two weeks ago, I decided enough was enough. I put the halves back together, put the loader back on, solder a hole in the radiator and was finally "finished", only to discover it ran like crap! It didn't start easy, seemed to have about 75% power at WOT and sputtered/cut out some. I was bummed. After several hours of running, I decided it could be the fuel but was doubtful since I've heard a million stories about people using much older diesel than the 18 month old stuff in my tank. I drained the tank, cleaned the sediment bowl and filled it with fresh diesel...... she fired off immediately and runs awesome! We've since put about 5-6 hrs on it and she truly runs/starts better than I ever remember since I've owned it ( ten years/800 hrs).

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