Tractor Sizing What comes into play when choosing HP?

/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #1  

dustinfox

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2011
Messages
399
Location
New Hampshire
Tractor
Kioti CK35 HST
I am hearing that the engine HP rating is an important consideration for operating attachments but for loader and backhoe operations it is the hydrolics that do all the work. How true is this? For example, when choosing between a 25HP tractor and a 35HP tractor, if I do not foresee using a PTO for anything, and all else being equal (exactly the same tractor but with different engine HP) will the 25HP perform as well as the 35HP?
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #2  
The pump determines the power of the hydraulic attachments. Many times, the OEM will offer a similar tractor in three different HP at 3 different price points, but may all use the same attachments and run off the same sized gpm pump. Be very sure.

On pto attachments, horse power is king and there's no real substitute.

In pulling or pushing, there's usually a limit of hp to effect results due to light weight and loss of traction, which is the holy grail.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #3  
The pump determines the power of the hydraulic attachments. Many times, the OEM will offer a similar tractor in three different HP at 3 different price points, but may all use the same attachments and run off the same sized gpm pump. Be very sure.

On pto attachments, horse power is king and there's no real substitute.

In pulling or pushing, there's usually a limit of hp to effect results due to light weight and loss of traction, which is the holy grail.

While this is true, you also need the HP to turn the pump while under a given load. ;) If the weight of the machine is capable of doing a certain task, then more HP will usually allow you to do that task faster.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #4  
In most cases, when using the hydraulic pumps on CUTS for a loader, backhoe, log splitter, etc, you are not using it while traveling. Or at least you are not pushing/pulling a significant load while dumping a loader for example. And for simple traveling while dumping, you won't notice a difference in speed, ground or dump. There may be a few chores that do muliple tasks whereby the pump performance could be affected. But for most users, I doubt this comprises a large portion of their work.

Also, it depends on the pump configuration. Some designs use one pump for several shared tasks, like power steering, implements, tranny. Other designs have mulitple pumps that split the tasks. Kioti's/BC's have 2 pumps. One for power steering, and one for everything else. In this way PS isn't compromised by loader work and visa versa.

The pump gpm limits operating speed, more so than hp. So, then a tractor that puts out say 7 gpm for implements does so without fully taxing all of the hp. Therefore, the same tractor with the same pump running the same implements at the same rpms will perform the same regardless of engine hp, as long as their is at least enough hp to run the pump at full gpm.

I do believe HST's are more geratly affected by pump gpm than gear tractors due to the nature of HST trannies requiring more of the gpm to function. Whereas the gear trannies mainly use hydro pressure for shifting/clutch/pressure plate engagement.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #5  
In most cases, when using the hydraulic pumps on CUTS for a loader, backhoe, log splitter, etc, you are not using it while traveling. Or at least you are not pushing/pulling a significant load while dumping a loader for example. And for simple traveling while dumping, you won't notice a difference in speed, ground or dump. There may be a few chores that do muliple tasks whereby the pump performance could be affected. But for most users, I doubt this comprises a large portion of their work.

Also, it depends on the pump configuration. Some designs use one pump for several shared tasks, like power steering, implements, tranny. Other designs have mulitple pumps that split the tasks. Kioti's/BC's have 2 pumps. One for power steering, and one for everything else. In this way PS isn't compromised by loader work and visa versa.

The pump gpm limits operating speed, more so than hp. So, then a tractor that puts out say 7 gpm for implements does so without fully taxing all of the hp. Therefore, the same tractor with the same pump running the same implements at the same rpms will perform the same regardless of engine hp, as long as their is at least enough hp to run the pump at full gpm.

I do believe HST's are more geratly affected by pump gpm than gear tractors due to the nature of HST trannies requiring more of the gpm to function. Whereas the gear trannies mainly use hydro pressure for shifting/clutch/pressure plate engagement.

The hp makes a HUGE difference when an HST is involved. Ask anyone that has operated a Kioti-BC27 and then operated a 35. Unless you are on flat ground only, there is a HUGE difference.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #6  
The hp makes a HUGE difference when an HST is involved. Ask anyone that has operated a Kioti-BC27 and then operated a 35. Unless you are on flat ground only, there is a HUGE difference.

Yes, I know all about the complaints about hp on the CK HSTs when traveling. They are heavy machines that can sap a lot of power, especially on inclines. That's one of the main reasons I opted for a gear. But, don't believe it affects loader/backhoe performance one bit, unless traveling while operating the loader or backhoe at the same time. So, in that light, the more hp the better they perform (all things considered). Transport wise, the hp does matter. However, the CKs have identical lift specs, pumps,flow specs, loader/backhoe sizes, and cycle times. From a purely loader/backhoe performance standpoint, users will not notice a difference between the three models when working them from a stand-still position. One won't lift any more than the other, nor cycle any faster.

I do agree that operating a pump driven implement takes hp, hp that could otherwise be applied to the drive train.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #7  
Dustin,
You also have to think about what you will use the tractor for. Being in New Hampshire do you have a long drive to plow or use a snow blower, flat or hills any logging? You can do almost anything with either size but it will take you longer with the lower HP. I have read on TBN many times that nobody ever wished they bought a smaller tractor. :)
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #8  
Yes, I know all about the complaints about hp on the CK HSTs when traveling. They are heavy machines that can sap a lot of power, especially on inclines. That's one of the main reasons I opted for a gear. But, don't believe it affects loader/backhoe performance one bit, unless traveling while operating the loader or backhoe at the same time. So, in that light, the more hp the better they perform (all things considered). Transport wise, the hp does matter. However, the CKs have identical lift specs, pumps,flow specs, loader/backhoe sizes, and cycle times. From a purely loader/backhoe performance standpoint, users will not notice a difference between the three models when working them from a stand-still position. One won't lift any more than the other, nor cycle any faster.

I do agree that operating a pump driven implement takes hp, hp that could otherwise be applied to the drive train.

I agree that in most situations, at a stand still the HP is not going to be a big difference, but as soon as you start to move, especially with an HST trans and work the tractor, HP is a big factor.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP?
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Hmmm... I was going to get an HST so the wife could drive the tractor but now you've all got me thinking I should convince her she should learn to deal with a gear transmission.:confused:
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #10  
Hmmm... I was going to get an HST so the wife could drive the tractor but now you've all got me thinking I should convince her she should learn to deal with a gear transmission.:confused:

Or just not let her play with your new toy:D

So far great advice has been given. I cannot really add to anything, just kinda sum it up.

IF the hydraulic specs/pump is the same, no difference sitting still.

Moving tractor, More HP will be noticable and allow you to do more work faster. BUT, faster doesnt mean it can do more. The smaller HP tractor will be able to do EVERYTHING the larger one will (not counting PRO stuff), it just may need to be done in a lower gear.

Example: I have a L3400 'bota. Where we cut wood, there is a BIG hill as soon as we pull out onto the road. With a trailer load (3/4-1cord) of wood, I can usually stay in 4H(gear tranny). But sometimes I do have to downshift. THIS is a case where HP runs out before traction. If I had gotten the L2800, I would probabally have to downshift far more often.

But when it comes to pulling other things offroad, the larger tractor may just allow you to do it a gear faster:thumbsup:
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #11  
If you are concerned about hp being sucked off by the HST, just get the next step up in horse power. You'd likely find that the vast majority of land owners here on TBN far and away prefer the convenience of the HST. I can use both and grew up on gear, but an HST is very, very well-behaved for close in work.

And you did mention your wife.........:D Get the HST.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #12  
Dustin,
You also have to think about what you will use the tractor for. Being in New Hampshire do you have a long drive to plow or use a snow blower, flat or hills any logging? You can do almost anything with either size but it will take you longer with the lower HP. I have read on TBN many times that nobody ever wished they bought a smaller tractor. :)

A generally accepted truism. That said, a lot of folks downsize. Oh yes, there is such a thing as too big a tractor. Oh yes, indeed.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #13  
Hmmm... I was going to get an HST so the wife could drive the tractor but now you've all got me thinking I should convince her she should learn to deal with a gear transmission.:confused:


I would buy a hydro transmission for myself in this size and for the considered uses, regardless of the wife operating skills. It will be easier for everyone to operate.

Tractors have a high weight to horsepower ratio by nature so having more power in the same frame size will make everything you do take less time. There are some similarities such as raising the loader bucket from a standstill position where you won't notice the difference but to transport the loaded bucket the higher hp tractor will move it faster. Driving a tractor up an incline is one case where the difference in power is very noticeable, this is true for gear or hydro trannies because the weight of the machine is the big factor.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP?
  • Thread Starter
#14  
So much great advice and input from everyone... Can't thank you enough :)

I've decided to move up to a larger HP tractor with the HST. Most folks seem to agree that the benefits are well worth any loss in power, and if I ever need the PTO I'll have that extra HP. And the wife will be happier ;)
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #15  
A generally accepted truism. That said, a lot of folks downsize. Oh yes, there is such a thing as too big a tractor. Oh yes, indeed.

The truth be told! I dropped all the way to a SCUT 18HP 4WD from a CUT 40.

And yes some jobs DO take longer but most of what I do gets done much quicker with the SCUT (landscaping and gardening). I have to get into very tight places, get through small access areas etc. Plus even with AG tires I don't leave ruts everywhere the tractor rolls.

The 3pt will lift 1200lbs which is enough for skidding the occasional fallen tree, or loading implements onto a trailer with a boom pole. Pulls a double row 4ft disc and box blade with 4 rippers all the way down just fine, just a wee bit slower. And much to my surprise runs a 5ft tiller just as well as the 40HP did.

They had the same tractor with HST and I was able to demo both. The HST was sweet.... but it did rob HP when using ground engaging equip so I opted for the manual.

My 40 was HST and never noticed any lack of power even going up moderate inclines. I'm thinking once you get to 30HP or so you're not going to see any noticeable difference in power one way or the other. But if something breaks you're sure gonna see a difference in the bill....LOL
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #16  
I have a Kioti DK45SC gear, which is about the right size tractor for my uses. Probably two-thirds of my seat time is using the loader, though, so I wish I had HST. For the uses you describe, the HST will make your life easier. If you opt for the slightly greater HP, you'll still be OK with future 3PH uses, too (and you WILL think of some, for sure!).
I'd even like HST for snow blowing: I sometimes feel like a one-armed paper-hanger shifting gears (and ranges), forward-reverse, steering, blower lift and chute rotation all at the same time, while twisted around looking backwards! HST would cut out a lot of the confusion and free up my left hand for just steering.
Go for the HST.
BOB
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #17  
I like gear. I've worked gears for decades. Still drive a manual in my truck.

But let's face it. A gear isn't a sure thing to avoid repair expenses down the road. Take care of it, because splitting a tractor to replace a clutch is not always easy or cheap. Have you priced clutches and pressure plates lately? Guys here report prices that make your mind absolutely boggle.

Take care of an HST and you'll get decades of trouble free use out it. It isn't an automatic transmission. It is a pretty tough hydraulic system. Personally, I'd never go back to a gear on a compact utility tractor for general, all-around use. The parasitic draw from an HST is far over-blown on a properly horse-powered unit, imho.
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #18  
Don't forget the PTO rule of thumb...
5HP at the PTO for every linear foot of the attachment

So... for a 5' rotary cutter you'd need at least 25HP at the PTO otherwise it may not operate smoothly
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #19  
So does that mean I can run a 5 or 6 foot diameter post hole digger with my 29HP tractor:D

J/K BTW:laughing:
 
/ What comes into play when choosing HP? #20  
So does that mean I can run a 5 or 6 foot diameter post hole digger with my 29HP tractor:D

J/K BTW:laughing:
As long as its geared right ... and the tractor is ballasted so it doesnt revolve instead.:D
larry
 
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