Foton 254 starting problem

[succor]

I'm going to have to figure out how to get this thing into the garage so I can warm it up. Not an easy task when it's cold. I'm wondering when I was pouring warm water on the starter at first if more water leaked in under the ring gear that I can't see? That was a pretty dumb thing to do I admit but I guess learn the hard way.

 

[succor]

Well,,, crap!! tried turning over the flywheel with no go! I so hope it's not seized!! Now the fun begins!! First thing I got to get this tractor in a warm garage to rule out possible freeze because it's **** cold up here now! Looks like I can turn the water pump cause I have it plugged in now. The block is starting to warm up but I also noticed I was low, about 2 liters of antifreeze. Talked to a parts fellow out east and said to check the bell housing bolts which can loosen and jam the flywheel, no visible signs on that anyway till I get in the garage. Also if there is water in the tranny or the fluid in the engine is seized. I hope were not talking a costly repair!!

Cory

 

[Rich Waugh]

Well, if your coolant was 2 liters low you shouldn't have done any major damage to the block even if it did freeze up. The block will only crack if there's no place for the expanding water to go - in your case it had a good bit of room, I'd guess. And as long as the remaining coolant was the proper mix for the temperatures, it shouldn't freeze anyway.

You did have the compression release open when you tried to turn it over, right? Makes a huge difference, of course. With extremely cold oil and full compression it would be extremely difficult to turn a diesel over by hand.

A warm garage would make working on it much more comfortable and would allow you (eventually, after thawing) to rule out the flywheel being iced up and frozen in place.

Perform the usual checks for oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil pan, etc. That will determine if you have a blown head gasket. If so, you'll want to get it opened up as soon as possible and clean out the cylinders that have gotten coolant in them, before any damage to rings, pistons and cylinder liners occurs. While you're at it, check the engine to see if any of the core plugs (sometimes called "freeze plugs") show signs of being shifted or pushed out.

Things may not be too bad - you just have to take it one step at a time and determine what is happening. It is a pain in the butt to have to do it during the dead of winter, though.

 

[Transit]

Cory, if you can get a socket on the nut for the belt pulley and an 18 inch or longer ratchet wrench you can turn the crank shaft by hand. I use a 6 point metric 36 mm socket.

 

[RonMar]

Cory, if you can get a socket on the nut for the belt pulley and an 18 inch or longer ratchet wrench you can turn the crank shaft by hand. I use a 6 point metric 36 mm socket.

The flywheel isn't the best place to try and turn it over by hand. It is hard to get a lot of leverage that way. The above suggestion with the compression release engaged and gearbox in neutral is the best way IMO...

 

[sjb]

If the engine is stuck, a possible cause might be ice in your hydraulic system. I've never seen a Foton but I assume you have an engine driven hydraulic pump. It doesn't take much ice to bind up the hydraulic system, and some tractors seem to accumulate a lot of moisture in the hydraulic oil, probably from condensation.

Saw this happen on an old Oliver 55. If that is the problem with your tractor it will probably start after you get it warm.

Stan

 

[succor]

Hey everyone, I think the conclusion here is pretty obvious in that it's the cold weather. Last night and tonight are windchill warnings below -42C !! With the moisture that this tractor has had in the last while, I'm pretty sure that it's completely frozen! Gonna wait till Saturday where we might hit a balming -8C where I could tow the tractor into the garage and let it thaw out! Funny thing is in the last 2 weeks we've hit the plus side for weather and than BAM, -35C, your asking for trouble with that abrupt change in temperature that fast.

Cory

 

[Diamondpilot]

Like you said get it in the garage and warm it up. If you have a loader you can raise it with a jack or another loader. Just lift and hold the handle back on the loader valve at the same time. I have had to do this with a Case Loader before. Block it up with some wood or steel.

When you thaw it out make sure the drain hole on the bottom of the bell housing is clear. Check it as you warm it a few times as trash may block it.

Chris

 

[succor]

Hey everyone, GOOD NEWS, it was the ice!! Left it in a warm garage for 24 hours and it thawed and dried out completely including water in the bell housing which froze the ring gear. Did some maintenance including tightening up bolts and away she went moving snow! It also looked like my water pump bolts were a tad loose as I was leaking antifreeze from there so I checked after running it for an hour and it was dry.

Thank goodness!!!

Cory

 

[Diamondpilot]

Glad you got it up and running.

Chris

 

[Rich Waugh]

That's good news, Cory! You got off easy, it sounds like. Now you know to keep the little weep hole in the bellhousing bottom clear and you've learned about starters. While it was certainly an annoyance, it didn't require new parts and you learned some things - not bad at all!

 

[succor]

Looks like it's going to have to stay in the garage till it completely dry's out. Had it out the other day, left it there and guess what, FREEZE! The tractor must sweat inside when it warms up and we are still in this cold snap.

Cory

 

[Diamondpilot]

Looks like it's going to have to stay in the garage till it completely dry's out. Had it out the other day, left it there and guess what, FREEZE! The tractor must sweat inside when it warms up and we are still in this cold snap.

Cory

You have something else going on. Are you sure there is nothing plugging the drain hole in the bell housing? Take off a loader mount or a inspection plate if you do not have a loader and take a look inside the bell housing. I usually take off my left one, seems easier.

Something is not right here.

Chris

 

[Gene :^)]

Are you still losing coolant?

Gene :^)

 

[succor]

So far I'm just keeping the tractor inside after I move snow. I wiggled around the peep hole on the bell housing and got a few drops of water, that's about it. I haven't removed the loader yet as it it too cold outside and not enough room inside the shop. For now this works. As for the coolant, the only time I could get it to leak was when I plugged in the rad hose heater to warm up the block. It never happened before till now. In the shop, I can't get it to leak when I plug it in; just outside when it's cold. Still looking into the issue.

 

[succor]

Hey everyone, now that the weather is finally warming up here, just thought I'd give an update about the starting problem with my foton 254. It's a combo problem!! As Greg and others pointed out, the voltage drop is down to 7 volts intermittently to the solenoid so wiring is one problem and also there wasn the ice problem down in the bell housing! the screwdriver trick to the starter starts the tractor 100% of the time but not the key due to wiring!

Thumbs up to this forum!!

Cory

 

[succor]

Hey everyone, another update. I decided to remove the wiring harness in behind the fuel tank and check wiring. Diesel fuel that was spilled when filling corrodes the wiring connections so I redid everyone that was bad. I do not like foton's grounding; 4 - 16 gauge wires tapped to 1 - 16 gauge wire tapped back to 3 is silly! This is sloppy wiring so I fixed this. I also took out the starting relay and clutch safety switch as this was part of the problem for my low voltage to the starter! When you simplify wiring it's amazing how the unit will start every single time!! I'm NOT having winter troubles again!

Gotta like a Foton

Cory

 

[Bob Rooks]

I also took out the starting relay and clutch safety switch as this was part of the problem for my low voltage to the starter! When you simplify wiring it's amazing how the unit will start every single time!!

They are there for a reason. Now you have high current going through your key switch. Curious why you removed them instead of replacing them (if they were in fact the problem).

 

[Diamondpilot]

Taking out the clutch safety switch is a personal decision but taking out the starter relay will burn up some wiring and switches real quick causing more issues in the long run.

Chris

 

[succor]

Let me be more specific; the starting relay should actually be called the solenoid relay which requires alot less current to energize than an actual starting relay to the starter. This relay was connected to the clutch safety switch which was connected to the key switch which energized the relay to actuate the solenoid. I'm not a big fan of relays as I've had 3 in 2 years fail due to starting issues. The dealer had installed an aftermarket starting relay to this unit only to have it fail quite quickly so out it comes, no problems. Even the manufacturer agreed on this one. The more high current contacts you have, the more carbon buildup thus resistance you have which leads to more failures. The key tumbler on these units are actually quite beefy compared to some models of the past. Wire sizes are decent for the most part but bad grounds are apparent in this unit as well.