M59 hydraulics got slow and weak.

[Hersheyfarm]

At 144hr the backhoe got to the point where I couldn't dig with it. No unusual noises. I changed fluid, filters at 70hr.

So I was on a jobsite yesterday and had to load it up and take to shop. One of the techs looked at it and first thing is he felt the 2 filters and one was hotter than the other. His thinking is a filter is clogged. he said Regardless, the first thing he would do in shop is change them out, dig with it and go from there. So i got the filters and said would do this at hope, hoping this is problem. But, why would a filter clog if nothing has broken down internally? I am taking filters of and dissecting them being careful to keep it in a container that can go to the shop with it so they can see it if this doesnt solve problem. Half of my hours are digging time so backhoe gets alot of use. No noises really, just complete lack of power. Any thoughts?
I'm off to get soaked in oil. And if something internal is wrong i am going to demand my $230 back for filters and oil, but will always be wondering why the filter plugged up at 70 hours if this cures the problem.

 

[art]

When things are built there are always small pieces that are left and that is why the first changes of filters and oils are so important. Your problem could be a piece of slag left within a system that is holding a relief valve open.

Second thing, before I'd go to far with this type trouble the first thing I'd do would be to change the filters and oil!!!!

I've seen filters that are to restrictive right out of the box! I've also seen filters that the wrong paper was used and virtually had no filtering ability for the application.

That is why I feel buying the best sometimes still isn't always enough!

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Well that fun is done. Got new filters on, cut paper out and saved fluid from filters. There is what looks to be brass particles, steel, and maybe aluminum. Not a huge amount but there. The fluid is a little dark. Is this a wet clutch? I'm getting cleaned up then fill it up and check it out. I lost 6 gal changing filters. So measure 6 gallons from drain plug and no mess when changing filters. Next time will be cleaner.

 

[rScotty]

At 144hr the backhoe got to the point where I couldn't dig with it. No unusual noises. I changed fluid, filters at 70hr.

I'm off to get soaked in oil. And if something internal is wrong i am going to demand my $230 back for filters and oil, but will always be wondering why the filter plugged up at 70 hours if this cures the problem.

Hershey, my M59 came with standard UDT tranny/hydrualic oil. I think they all do OEM. The dealer did the filter/fluid change at 50 hours and when I asked about what type of fluid he used he said he had made up the spillage - about half the tranny oil with New Holland Multi G 134 - he said that was approved by Kubota. I wasn't pleased, but not too concerned either as it worked and sounded fine and I trust him.

Still, I resolved to change the oil back to Kubota type at the 200 hour service. At 200 hrs I did the filters and went to the Super UDT. $$! Over the next month I began to have hydraulic problems - the worst of which was a stuck main boom cylinder which Kubota replaced under warranty. Then the pump began to whine and the thumb cylinder started sticking. And the hydraulic overpressure valves started sticking. Unfortunately the warranty period was now over. By then I had started to suspect the Super UDT - it hadn't impressed me all all that much back when I'd put it in. So on a hunch I changed back to New Holland Multi G 134. Over the next 20 hours everything cleared up and it works fine again. A fuller account is in the various M59 discussion threads here.

Of course it might have all been a coincidence.....
rScotty

 

[rswyan]

Any thoughts? I'm off to get soaked in oil. And if something internal is wrong i am going to demand my $230 back for filters and oil, but will always be wondering why the filter plugged up at 70 hours if this cures the problem.

Yup .... lemme see:

You've accepted the mechanic's diagnosis, elected to do the work yourself at home (depriving the dealership of that revenue), and if it doesn't work ..... you're gonna demand your money back ..... ?

..... impressive .....

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Yup .... lemme see:

You've accepted the mechanic's diagnosis, elected to do the work yourself at home (depriving the dealership of that revenue), and if it doesn't work ..... you're gonna demand your money back ..... ?

..... impressive .....

the mechanic said I can do it myself or they could do it it here. If the filters I bought and put on for the 50hr thing were bad I would be paying them. he thought thats what it could be. so yes, friday at 4:00, **** straight I elected to try the easy fix... but

That was not the problem. 3 new filters, 6 gal of juice, a job needing inspected monday and needs the backhoe to finish, a not pleasant saturday morning oil bath, and the hydraulics have no power. when I went to dig a test hole it started ok, but soon stopped responding. Doesnt have power to pick up the front bucket unless you increase the rpm's above idle. very slight high pitch wine comes from the front pump. It seems to drive fine and the boom swings at normal speed, i think.

and to the above poster who I quoted, looks like I will get what I deserve for cheating dealer out of money. whats weekly equipment rental? $800?

In 14 years this will be the first time my business has been equipment poor. kinda gives you a little sick feeling...

maybe the m59 isnt stout enough to support a business. I hope it is cause its perfectly size to pull around.

 

[rswyan]

the mechanic said I can do it myself or they could do it it here. If the filters I bought and put on for the 50hr thing were bad I would be paying them. he thought thats what it could be. so yes, friday at 4:00, **** straight I elected to try the easy fix... but ....

I really got no issue with you electing to do it yourself .... probably would have done the same myself ......

I thought the "demand my money back" part was a little over the top tho' ....

 

[Hersheyfarm]

I really got no issue with you electing to do it yourself .... probably would have done the same myself ......

I thought the "demand my money back" part was a little over the top tho' ....

mechanic said the first thing to do is change filters and try it out. My thoughts are they are using same parts to find a problem. Im not much of a demander anyways. Matter of fact I'm wigging out wondering if dealer is up to par. Ive bought hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment and never had to have one opened up. Hanging out back there in the service department was kind of a turn off. my salesman is a very good guy, the tech that looked at it with me seems very good. The overall look of the service department and management not so good. Me and my salesman were talking after kinda a spat with service management and him...he hates them. the word lazy, and not caring came out of his mouth. I dont know, in a perfect world the service department would look like a surgery room, not with numerous scattered dirty equipment taken apart in various stages. This, my ocd, and the current way business is in residential housing could put me over the top... or should I say under a bottle.:licking::thumbsup:

 

[Hersheyfarm]

also, does anyone know what the revision page is covering in the manual. its the page that shows the hydro and hst filters. The tech was really thinking there was a screen, and this unit is one of the first ones put out. it sat on their lot for like 2 years, one reason the deal was so good. did they change something?

 

[rScotty]

also, does anyone know what the revision page is covering in the manual. its the page that shows the hydro and hst filters. The tech was really thinking there was a screen, and this unit is one of the first ones put out. it sat on their lot for like 2 years, one reason the deal was so good. did they change something?

Parts or Service manual? Or operator's?

In the parts manual it might be because the page indexed for the hydraulic filter is actually a fuel filter. The hydraulic filter is on page 131 under the heading : Hydraulic oil line (suction).
I don't see any revised parts listed in the parts manual but my manual is first printing and I'm not on the revision list. Your mechanic will be. Note that the part 030 (a pipe threaded nipple) which is what the vertical driver's side hydraulic filters screw onto is known to loosen when changing the hydraulic filter(s). It's good practice to tighten that piece into the casting & consider using Loctite on the nipple-to-block threads before installing the filter. A glance at the way the screw threads are designed will show what the problem is.

In the service manual I don't see any mention of revisions for the filters, but the text and picture on pages G-26 and G-30 do repeat the same mistake that is in the owner's manual on page 85. That is, they all show the wrong illustration and reference drain plugs that don't exist.

If that mistake has been changed in later manuals then maybe that is the reason for the revision.

BTW, I've yet to meet a mechanic who makes money on oil changes. There's lots of ways to lose money doing them though. I still think the best mechanical work is done by a careful owner doing the same job for the second time.....
rScotty

 

[Hersheyfarm]

I kinda didn't care to do the filter swap, now at least when I take it in they will bypass step one and go straight to pressure testing.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Parts or Service manual? Or operator's?

In the parts manual it might be because the page indexed for the hydraulic filter is actually a fuel filter. The hydraulic filter is on page 131 under the heading : Hydraulic oil line (suction).
I don't see any revised parts listed in the parts manual but my manual is first printing and I'm not on the revision list. Your mechanic will be. Note that the part 030 (a pipe threaded nipple) which is what the vertical driver's side hydraulic filters screw onto is known to loosen when changing the hydraulic filter(s). It's good practice to tighten that piece into the casting & consider using Loctite on the nipple-to-block threads before installing the filter. A glance at the way the screw threads are designed will show what the problem is.

In the service manual I don't see any mention of revisions for the filters, but the text and picture on pages G-26 and G-30 do repeat the same mistake that is in the owner's manual on page 85. That is, they all show the wrong illustration and reference drain plugs that don't exist.

If that mistake has been changed in later manuals then maybe that is the reason for the revision.

BTW, I've yet to meet a mechanic who makes money on oil changes. There's lots of ways to lose money doing them though. I still think the best mechanical work is done by a careful owner doing the same job for the second time.....
rScotty

And I think it is the drain plug thing. I coated the page with hydraulic oil(I got plenty) and that allows you to read the the text underneath.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Like I just posted in another thread with someone buying a new machine that sat for years, could that contribute to failures? In pumps, you have steel, brass, and aluminum. Any corrosion that sets up in pump could drastically shorten life. Dealer bulletin from Hershey farms: Start and warm up all equipment multiple times a year.

 

[powerstroke444e]

Had this happen to my B26 and lets hope this works for you. On mine the thumb valve stuck in open postion and it didnt make any noise but created back pressure on the system so after a few movements it would do the same think. Make sure your 3pt lever hasnt been moved or levers for any other hydraulic functions.
Hope this helps

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Had this happen to my B26 and lets hope this works for you. On mine the thumb valve stuck in open postion and it didnt make any noise but created back pressure on the system so after a few movements it would do the same think. Make sure your 3pt lever hasnt been moved or levers for any other hydraulic functions.
Hope this helps

so what was happening, was the releif valve bypassing hydraulic pressure? I do have the auxilary hydraulics up front that is capped off and never used.

The hydraulics do heat up hot quick too.

 

[Stonehaller]

The hydraulics do heat up hot quick too.

The M59 has open center hydraulics. If your hydraulics heat up quick, then that is a clue something is restriction oil flow causing oil to be dumped over the relief valve. This could be a valve that is stuck and not fully returning to center. You could quickly isolate between the backhoe and front loader by setting the levers on the back of the tractor to the three point position. You do not have to take the hoe off, just don't raise the three point with the hoe on. Now see if the loader works normally. If the loader works normally, the problem is probably a valve on the backhoe. Could also be the quick disconnect for the main pump to the hoe is not fully seated. If the loader still does not work normally, then the problem could be the loader valve or the auxiliary front hydraulics. Is there a separate control valve or electric solenoid for the auxiliary?

 

[powerstroke444e]

I would start at backhoe and unhook the quick attach couplers and make sure they are connected. On yours you have a valve that needs moved for backhoe to work??? If so move it on and off several times to make sure it is all the way over. Start the machine and at IDLE see make sure 3pt lever is all the way down and hit the valve for front hydraulics you should here it dead head only hit it for a second cycle it. If you have a thumb cycle that valve several times.
I know this sound simple but I have worked on many machines and found that more often than not its something simple. Let us know what you find.
On mine when the thumb valve was moved it closed power tank port on the end of the system so it would slowly gum things up shut it off and cycle valves and it would work for couple min.

Hope this helps.
PM if you want to talk about it as I just dont think it would be a mechanical failure on that low of hr machine

FYI I learned this the hard way several times and most likely will again so dont get mad at the machine it tells you what is wrong we just never listen.

 

[rScotty]

The hydraulics do heat up hot quick too.

Well, I'm thinking that heat is actually real good news. It means the pump is working & working strongly. So we are looking for a constriction somewhere and just need to find it before it causes the fluid to get hot enough to damage something - but that's a slower process than something mechanical. It might be in an operating valve, a filter, connector, or a bypass.

I'm guessing that from your description of what is happening that the restriction is a rather than a clogged filter ...or maybe pressure in the filter is actuating a bypass route for the fluid. Whichever, I agree with your mechanic that replacing the filters was an obvious first step.

Now it's just a matter of finding where that flow is going instead of where it should.

I wouldn't expect those different metals in contact to cause significatn electrolytic corrosion in just a few years...coated with oil as they are. Although I don't blame you for being worried about that.

Hey, Hershey, did you drain the hyd. oil before swapping the two filters? A local mechanic told me on my M59 he could swap them without loosing more than a few quarts, but I sure couldn't. It came out in such a rush when I pulled the plug. I have heard that hooking a shop vac to the fill opening will lower the pressure enough that you can do it without loosing oil. Anyone tried that yet?
rScotty

 

[Hersheyfarm]

If the pump is not gone then the bypassing has to be around the front loader controls. I unhooked the backhoe connects and switched to 3 point hitch. Like the front loader it will not lift unless I idle it up, and as I ran it it was getting worse as it heated up. I cycled the front auxiliary buttons too. Where are the releif valves and bypasses? The steering and hst seem normal. Also when cycling the loader it would lift faster if I dumped bucket at same time. Just out of curiosity where are the pumps? Is one behind fuel filter and the other where the 2 filters are underneath?

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Hey, Hershey, did you drain the hyd. oil before swapping the two filters? A local mechanic told me on my M59 he could swap them without loosing more than a few quarts, but I sure couldn't. It came out in such a rush when I pulled the plug. I have heard that hooking a shop vac to the fill opening will lower the pressure enough that you can do it without loosing oil. Anyone tried that yet?
rScotty

No I put buckets under the filters and drained til it stopped. It came to be just over 6 gal. There is no way I was going to try and spin off and on quickly. That fluids in a hurry.

But, if you put one leg down and lift the tractor up sideway it would probably save a bunch of fluid. I'm going to try that next time. Lift one side up, for hydraulic filters, then the other side for tranny filter. Of coarse leaving front bucket up so you get maximum tilt.