Invention Idea

[deepNdirt]

With all the talk and questions on stability of our CUT tractors, Plus the fact that I have been working quit allot on un-level terrain lately, I've toss around some idea's in my head, They have probably been thought of before, But I have taken time to scribble a drawing down to explain my thoughts
Good or bad I'm ready for everyones inputs?,

............................................
here is how it works, rather simple concept stolen from the training wheels of my granddaughters Bicycle,
1- take a 4" heavy guage pipe or could be Square tubing 36"-40" long
(depends on size tractor),

2-weld some mounting brackets onto it with drilling holes to mount at the tractors Mid-mount holes from underneath,

3- get the next size smaller pipe/tube so that it can slide into the larger pipe

4- drill a series of line-up hole through both pipe so could have increments of adjustments with using a drop in pin, The larger pipe could be mounted stationary and have the ability to quickly install the inside bar when in need, would be kind of like having and extra implement,

5- the smaller size pipe will need to be longer approx. 72" long this would be the maximum span allowing an approximate extension to one side or the other of the tractor by 48" roughly.

6- have the inside pipe able to slide from one side or the other, and could be slide to ever which side would be down hill side of the tractor,
7- it could have a single wheel or a set of double pivoting wheels ,

I could go on with explaining but by now I'm sure y'all understand the theory and principle behind it,
so would this be something that could work and add much needed extra stability to our cut tractors in the event we might need a safety net while working on un-leveling terrain:thumbsup:

and you might also think back at how car manufactures test their car rollover points,

 

[zzvyb6]

The outriggers used in the car and truck tests are made out of titanium. There are plastic pucks on the end so the vehicle slides on them if it tips up. The goal in those tests is to excite the vehicle dynamically which minimizing the outrigger effects on its mass, inertia and C.G. height.

A cheaper steel version for a tractor would weigh too much to handle in order to restrain it and its implement(s). If the end digs into dirt, its going to stick in there and flop it over even faster. The best way to keep a tractor from tipping is to extend the wheel track as wide as practical AND TO USE TIRES THAT SLIDE SIDEWAYS INSTEAD OF DIGGING INTO THE HILLSIDE. R1 tires are designed to have low lateral grip (sidebite). But if they are worn or inflated improperly, then they stick better. And that's bad news.

For example, I regularly slide my JD1070 on a side hill while mowing (with R1s). When it had turf tires, I had to crawl out on the fenders to keep 3 wheels on the ground. Pucker Factor was kinda high then. Stupid Factor was just a little bit higher back then, too.

 

[deepNdirt]

The outriggers used in the car and truck tests are made out of titanium. There are plastic pucks on the end so the vehicle slides on them if it tips up. The goal in those tests is to excite the vehicle dynamically which minimizing the outrigger effects on its mass, inertia and C.G. height.

A cheaper steel version for a tractor would weigh too much to handle in order to restrain it and its implement(s). If the end digs into dirt, its going to stick in there and flop it over even faster. The best way to keep a tractor from tipping is to extend the wheel track as wide as practical AND TO USE TIRES THAT SLIDE SIDEWAYS INSTEAD OF DIGGING INTO THE HILLSIDE.

I understand this would be the case if not using wheels, I guess I didn't make it clear that would be using some sort of a wheel for a ground contact, perhaps have the bar-wheels axle set at a slight camber or even have a set of stiff springs that would recoil a bit but bottom out after a certain amount of angle,

when a tractor becomes unbalance it usually by very little margin at first and the slightest expansion on the opposite side could prevent a side-rollover ..wouldn't you think? I shouldn't think that the complete weight of 1500 +lbs etc,etc would be applied to the expansion at this point of time, but i could be wrong....

 

[aczlan]

I think that you would be better served by widening the rear wheels with spacers or duals rather than adding outriggers.

Aaron Z

 

[Baby Grand]

I think that you would be better served by widening the rear wheels with spacers or duals rather than adding outriggers.

Aaron Z

+1
Outriggers work great on sailboats, but on a trator you would spend a lot of time fixing them - or the cars, fences, garage door openings, trees, etc that they would invariably plow into. Having to keep track of the FEL bucket forward and/or the brush hog deck aft is bad enough, I can't imagine trying to keep track of 2 more things amidships, port and starboard, at the same time. I would have some 'splainin' to do.

 

[not2old]

For example, I regularly slide my JD1070 on a side hill while mowing (with R1s). When it had turf tires, I had to crawl out on the fenders to keep 3 wheels on the ground. Pucker Factor was kinda high then. Stupid Factor was just a little bit higher back then, too.[/QUOTE]

Nice to know I'm not the only one who lived long enough to get a lot smarter. I'm sure we've all done dumb things that we won't do anymore.

 

[deepNdirt]

while reversing or adding wider wheel span on the rear will certainly gain more stability at the rear but this doesn't do much to help with the front when the front is on center pivot,.... I don't think some of you are quite seeing the whole picture, This would be a part to add to a tractor only when needed if having to use tractor on a un-level terrain, just as any implement would be to the 3-pH who leave their brush cutter on the time? or the disc harrows'... would not intended to keep attached while going to and from the garage or as a everyday use attachment, the bracket would be the only thing left in place in order to slide the "outrigger" as you are calling it ,
into when needed.. although I can't really see as to how catching fish has anything to do with it and then of course the bracket would simply be a bolt on assembly, just like with using a quick removal FEL,

 

[deepNdirt]

let me give a scenario, I've been working on leveling a spot for a above ground pool at the rear of a back yard, when cutting out an area of hillside he ask that I use the dirt to fill in a swell in another area at the foot of the hill, after building up the swell I needed to clean it all up with the Pulverizer, so while dragging the fill dirt with one side of the tractor on the hill the other side was running on soft fill dirt, Of course I've don this many times before and with the 5 ft pulverizer and keep the FEL at low gravity I fill comfortable enough to do the work, but then the Home owner ask if I would go ahead and drag the hill higher up? I told him I wouldn't feel comfortable with doing it, if it were where I could go around and come off from topside of hill and come down which I have done many times before, but ther was no way because of a privacy fenced up top and could not get to the top, and is then the idea come to mind, I'm sure the tractor would have stayed on the hill although there is always the possibility a side roll could happen,
Thus this idea....

 

[Baby Grand]

Hadn't considered the quick attach/adjust aspect. I suppose you could pin them on telescoping tubes so you could move them in and out of the way when not needed? If you can install or drop them quickly, you might have something of value in the making.

 

[clemsonfor]

Still need to read a few replies but the only thing i see is that when you mow to the end and need to come back you have to swap your 3rd wheel to the other side right?

 

[deepNdirt]

Hadn't considered the quick attach/adjust aspect. I suppose you could pin them on telescoping tubes so you could move them in and out of the way when not needed? If you can install or drop them quickly, you might have something of value in the making.

I'm going to build the prototype and see how it works, as most invention do fail in first test I must be sure this one does not otherwise I may not be able to get the bugs out ( if ya know what I mean ) its really a simple concept, and with my tractor already having the mounting towers for the FEL extended out the sides I will have a better chance of success, although will not be bolting the setup to where I had mention because the FEL is already bolted up there, I would of course have to re-design the system to fit into the tractors provided bolt holes, or make up a generic plate that would require drill the bolt pattern of each different tractor,

again this is not a permanent mounted tool, but would be easily attached when or if ever needed,
Clemsonfor: Many times when working my tractor I have habit of running in only one direction, Not sure why it is I do this? But I think it has something to do being comfortable on my tractor, Just as I would when brush cutting down a hill I will go around to the top and come back down again, I never turn around and start up the hill etc,etc,

If I'm running 200 ft. on side of a hill I would simply drive back to where i started from and come again, etc,etc, I guess if I were to use this tool I might not even have need to have one that would adjust to one side or the other... I could get by with only the one side, However! if the opposite side were to have a certain amount of extension I could have a way to install a Ballast weight that could be helpful as well,...

 

[dcyrilc]

while reversing or adding wider wheel span on the rear will certainly gain more stability at the rear but this doesn't do much to help with the front when the front is on center pivot,.... I don't think some of you are quite seeing the whole picture.

The front doesn't affect the stability of the tractor. To prove this, make a ramp and drive one side of the front axle up the ramp. There will be no tip transfered to the tractor. Now back one side of the rear axle onto the ramp. You will begin tipping very quickly as the front provides no support to prevent it due to the pivoting axle.

Rollover of a tractor on a side slope is determined by the height of the center of gravity (CG) vs the width of the wheel base. As a tractor is tipped sideways, a line between the CG and the outside of the wheel base represents when the tractor will roll. When that line exceeds verticle as the tractor is tipped, it will roll. Adding duels dramatically changes this angle.

I have a picture to post representing this, but just realized that my scanner is on my old computer which is dead. I will add the pic shortly when I have installed the scanner on this computer.

Drawing uploaded.

 

[deepNdirt]

The front doesn't affect the stability of the tractor. To prove this, make a ramp and drive one side of the front axle up the ramp. There will be no tip transfered to the tractor. Now back one side of the rear axle onto the ramp. You will begin tipping very quickly as the front provides no support to prevent it due to the pivoting axle.

Rollover of a tractor on a side slope is determined by the height of the center of gravity (CG) vs the width of the wheel base. As a tractor is tipped sideways, a line between the CG and the outside of the wheel base represents when the tractor will roll. When that line exceeds verticle as the tractor is tipped, it will roll. Adding duels dramatically changes this angle.

I have a picture to post representing this, but just realized that my scanner is on my old computer which is dead. I will add the pic shortly when I have installed the scanner on this computer.

Yes what you are saying is true, in any case when widening the wheel span,
I'm not arguing this fact, in fact I'm not arguing at all are you saying that my idea will not work? You may think to yourself .. what is this idiot thinking. should I totally scrap the idea, and go for duel wheels/tires
would wider tires be all is needed, if so then I'm good with that,

Yes lets see some example, do you have pictures of the scenario of working on a hill side?:thumbsup:

 

[dcyrilc]

Yes what you are saying is true, in any case when widening the wheel span,
I'm not arguing this fact, in fact I'm not arguing at all are you saying that my idea will not work? You may think to yourself .. what is this idiot thinking. should I totally scrap the idea, and go for duel wheels/tires
would wider tires be all is needed, if so then I'm good with that,

Yes lets see some example, do you have pictures of the scenario of working on a hill side?:thumbsup:

Sorry, no pix. Just the drawing I made.

Not saying your idea won't work, I just think it's more work than neccessary.

Duels are easy to install and remove (at least mine are), and the difference in side stability is unbelievable.

 

[dcyrilc]

Something I haven't tried yet, but I think will work, is to install both duels (with longer bolts of course) on one side and run tripples on the downhill side.

Should be an interesting experiment for next year.

 

[deepNdirt]

Cyril

would you happen to know ...... if the tires are full of liquid does this contribute to a higher CG and would cause even more risk of side roll, I mean I know a liquid ballast tire will provide much better traction on level terrain and even on un-level terrain, but while being unlevel and more weight at higher point of gravity would this als be a higher risk of throwing the tractor over,

One reason I have never used liquid ballast, I borrowed a tractor that had liquid in the tires, as I was using the tractor I could notice the tractor feeling as though it was jerky, in other words, when I go from forward to reverse it would be like still wanting to move in the direction I stopped from, or when I apply the brakes it feel as the the tractor still wants to move another couple of feet, kind like its momentum had it keep moving and I would need to press on the brake harder,

 

[dcyrilc]

Cyril

would you happen to know ...... if the tires are full of liquid does this contribute to a higher CG and would cause even more risk of side roll, I mean I know a liquid ballast tire will provide much better traction on level terrain and even on un-level terrain, but while being unlevel and more weight at higher point of gravity would this als be a higher risk of throwing the tractor over,

One reason I have never used liquid ballast, I borrowed a tractor that had liquid in the tires, as I was using the tractor I could notice the tractor feeling as though it was jerky, in other words, when I go from forward to reverse it would be like still wanting to move in the direction I stopped from, or when I apply the brakes it feel as the the tractor waited to move another couple of feet, kind like its momentum had it keep moving,

I've never used filled tires, but that said, here is my opinion...

Since tires are filled from the bottom of the tire to approximately the top of the rim, the CG of the tires would be below the axle and add more weight lower on the tractor. This would indeed lower the CG of the tractor overall and help to add stability on side slopes. Look back at my drawing and lower the CG symbol. You will see how it will change the rollover point by changing the angle of the line to the edge of the wheel base.

What I don't know, and I'm sure is what you were feeling, is what effect the inertia of the fluid in the tires wanting to continue in the same direction will have on this.

I firmly believe that duels will give better stability than filled tires, but I have not had the opportunity to actually test this belief so take that for what it's worth. I went with the option of duels because I got them free with my tractor and for me, free beats the cost of filling tires any day of the week.

 

[Johndeere3720]

Here is an idea for ya. When I was at one of the local state parks a couple years ago they wanted to use a 5210 John Deere to flail a trail on an incline so the horse riders would not go through the day use area. So they took about 4 wheel weights and put them on the left rear tire on the up hill side and flailed along the hill. It must have worked well because it didn't tip once. I don't know if you could get wheel weights for your Yanmar but it might work because you still have the versatility of the tractor but gain the weight on the up hill side which will anchor the up hill side down. And with little strain on the axle, it must work.