Waxes and polishes.

[sld]

Bear with me here, I am trying to sort this out and understand.

The clear coat protects the base color. The clear coat is a paint also, so what protects it?

I have always thought that the wax fills all the tiny irregularities in the paint. After filling all these the finish feels much smoother, sheds water better, and keeps contaminates from sticking. This in effect is protecting the clear coat paint.

Does polish fill these tiny little irregularities or remove the little high spots to achieve the same thing? If it removes them, then you have a limited number of times you can do this before removing all the clear coat.

It seems to me that I would want to use a system that is least aggressive with the paint. Neglected finishes will need heavy buffing to restore the luster but at the price of losing a few mils of clear coat thickness. Does polishing compound have any abrasives? It seems most do but pure carnauba wax doesn't.

Regular washings followed by a good coat of wax even just 3-4 times per year seems to be a very non-aggressive way to maintain a shine.

If you assume that polishing does NOT remove any clear coat whatsoever, how long does the water still bead and the paint feel smooth compared to a good waxing? I apply everything by hand mainly just to keep it "non-aggressive" to the finish. Can polishes even be applied by hand effectively? If so, is it more or less effort and than applying wax?

Thanks for any input.

 

[ray66v]

Bear with me here, I am trying to sort this out and understand.

The clear coat protects the base color. The clear coat is a paint also, so what protects it?

I have always thought that the wax fills all the tiny irregularities in the paint. After filling all these the finish feels much smoother, sheds water better, and keeps contaminates from sticking. This in effect is protecting the clear coat paint.

Does polish fill these tiny little irregularities or remove the little high spots to achieve the same thing? If it removes them, then you have a limited number of times you can do this before removing all the clear coat.

It seems to me that I would want to use a system that is least aggressive with the paint. Neglected finishes will need heavy buffing to restore the luster but at the price of losing a few mils of clear coat thickness. Does polishing compound have any abrasives? It seems most do but pure carnauba wax doesn't.

Regular washings followed by a good coat of wax even just 3-4 times per year seems to be a very non-aggressive way to maintain a shine.

If you assume that polishing does NOT remove any clear coat whatsoever, how long does the water still bead and the paint feel smooth compared to a good waxing? I apply everything by hand mainly just to keep it "non-aggressive" to the finish. Can polishes even be applied by hand effectively? If so, is it more or less effort and than applying wax?

Thanks for any input.

This is a lot of questions for one post.

1. It's not 1970 anymore. Technology has evolved to the point that the finish is capable of lasting as long as the vehicle, with no help from you. Yes, sometimes manufacturers cut corners and finishes fail anyway, for various reasons. These kind of failures cannot be prevented with wax.

2. The molecular structure of high solids clear coats are very tight, there are no longer voids to fill in. Most of the slippery feeling and clean ability, is from the silicone in the wax, and not the wax. .These same silicones are in the polishes. So you get the same effect. I have discussed this several times now.

3. Correct, you do not want to remove any clear coat unless it is absolutely necessary. This means sanding or using rubbing compound should be limited as much as possible.

4. The only way a polish is going to actually do anything is if it has abrasives. However, the abrasives in most polishes are very mild, particularity the ones I suggested, and non-agressive. If you took one of them to an old car, and intentionally tried to polish through the clear coat, your arm would fall off hours before that happened. Most manufacturers put enough clear coat on a vehicle to significantly protect it. One who I despise, has a habit of under applying their clear coats. When you repair vehicles for a living, you can see the difference as you sand the vehicles to do repairs. I am not going to say which manufacturer, because I don't want another argument about that too. But, it suffices to say, if you use a polish, and don't beat your vehicle finish to death in between, you will still not have problems.

5. Simply applying a wax will not keep a vehicle shinning indefinitely. Everyday wear and tear results in minor scratches, and pollution that will require more than coats of wax to remove. Simply applying wax will do little more than make your vehicle bead water, which seems to make some people really happy. A wax with a cleaner can sometimes work to keep a shine, but keep in mind the cleaner is a polish, and therefore it is abrasive.

6. If you read my last post, I thoroughly discussed applying polish by hand. It is less effort to simply polish a vehicle if you do it regularly, especially if you believe you need to let wax dry before you remove it.

 

[grsthegreat]

are there any brands of waxes and or polishes that come with an installer in the bottle???? i mean an installer with 4 arms and 2 legs. Man my arms get sore using that stuff.

I tried one of those polishing machines...not too impressed.

I need a bottle with a Genie inside :laughing: :laughing: :mur::mur:

 

[ray66v]

are there any brands of waxes and or polishes that come with an installer in the bottle???? i mean an installer with 4 arms and 2 legs. Man my arms get sore using that stuff.

I tried one of those polishing machines...not too impressed.

I need a bottle with a Genie inside :laughing: :laughing: :mur::mur:

That is why were supposed to have children.

 

[dodge man]

Dual Action Orbital Polishers and pads: Porter Cable 7424 : Porter Cable 7424XP: Lake Country Buffing Foam Pads

Here is a link to the kind of buffer I have. You can adjust the speed of it. When I first got a power buffer, I was almost afraid to use it. Its not as hard to use as you'd think. As long as you keep it moving and are a little carefull, it works great. I've started using Zaino products, they have stuff with various levels of cut to it, but most of their stuff in pretty mild. I like their stuff since if you get it on plastic trim, it doesn't leave a white residue behind. Zaino calls their stuff a polish, but most of their stuff is more of a protectant.

 

[Scooby074]

General: Optimum ( menzerna and Zaino) polish and LC pads seem to be the darlings of the forums. Glad youve had good luck. So far i havent been able to find them here, but im going to keep looking.

Ray: good tips on the masking. Ill have a look for Car Brite products. Not much on the forums about it. None of the places i deal with locally (professional detail wholesalers /retailers) have it and the Car Brite website is pretty much useless to find a retailer. Megs has a few stocking stores locally, unfortunately they dont carry much product. Ill look for the Crystal finish.

Currently, im using Malco Rejunavator as a polish/AIO. Not bad, but i cant get enough heat by hand. I have a Makita Rotary. It'll do the job. Im trying to find LC pads but havent been able to. I can get Edge 2000 pads (which seem to have a good rep) and Malco pads. Might try them.

$50 for a gallon of prep solv doesnt frighten me as long as it works. Im using Malco Plastic and Leather cleaner for hard plastic surfaces. Does a pretty good job of stripping the silicons and dirt. I like 3M products and will give it a try if its worth the upgrade.

Anybody have any products by Malco they like? I have pretty decent access to their whole line if theres a specific product that works good id love to hear...

I know most recommend claying a car before polish, but is there anything out there that will let you skip that step? Its one ive never understood.. shouldnt polish abrade away anything thats on the surface of the paint that the clay bar would remove?

 

[ray66v]

I know most recommend claying a car before polish, but is there anything out there that will let you skip that step? Its one ive never understood.. shouldnt polish abrade away anything thats on the surface of the paint that the clay bar would remove?

You can skip the clay, but it really helps make polishing/waxing go easier. This is due to the fact that the surface is usually smoother.

I use cold water with lots of dish soap, on a vehicle that is cool to the touch, when I use clay. It helps keep it from being so much work.

If you use the clay on one side of a hood, and do the other side without it, when your all done with the job, on most vehicles you will see, and feel a difference. This is assuming there were some particles and grime to remove. If the finish is new, there may be little or nothing to remove.

3M water based solvent is part #8983
Sherwin Williams Automotive is #S57

Dupont and PPG also have a version, I have not used them, I am sure they are very similar. Check with a local paint supplier.

Don't think because they're water based, they're safe enough to drink. It has no strong odor, and does not attack your skin. But, if you left a rag soaked with it laying on a painted surface for a very long period of time, it can soften it. They are made to be used on paint, and there is absolutely no harm, if you use it properly. I washed every vehicle, and or part down with these, before I panted them.

ArmourAll has always been a fierce contaminate in the paint shop. As a testimonial to how good these cleaners are, they can remove ArmourAll from plastic parts and painted surfaces well enough to be able to repaint them. If you have ever tried to do that, you know it's nearly impossible.

For those who still want to wax: Try letting the wax dry on one side of the hood, and just do wax on, wax off on the other side. You will find letting wax dry only makes the job a lot more work. If you apply the same amount of wax, it will look exactly the same either way.

For anyone who has tiny orange rust speckles on the sides off their vehicle: (Mostly noticeable on white or silver vehicles), it's from your brakes. There is a way to dissolve this chemically, without a lot of work, using Oxalic acid.

 

[Scooby074]

Thanks Ray. Amazon has the 3m prep for $38. Now to find it for something cost to that cost local :laughing:

Usually, when i paint, i use lacquer thinner, virgin gun wash or OMNI Mx190 for prepsolv (yes i know about the first 2... havent had any issues though). Wouldnt dare use it on a dash.. wouldnt be too much left when done

 

[ray66v]

Usually, when i paint, i use lacquer thinner, virgin gun wash or OMNI Mx190 for prepsolv (yes i know about the first 2... havent had any issues though). Wouldnt dare use it on a dash.. wouldnt be too much left when done

The water based products are designed for final prep wash, before painting.

The best way to demonstrate how effective they are is: After sanding, wash with what ever solvent you normally use to do your final cleaning. When your satisfied it is clean, clean it again with the water based solvent, and wipe with a clean white rag. Everyone is always surprised how much the oil based solvents leave behind, and how much cleaner it is after using the water based product. There is never ever any contamination, or fish eyes to deal with.

Amazingly, most painters don't even know about this product.

 

[mbrule]

Ray,

Are you saying that you use water based prep solv to clean plastic interior pieces?

Matt

 

[ray66v]

Ray,

Are you saying that you use water based prep solv to clean plastic interior pieces?

Matt

Yes. It's the best interior cleaner I have found.

And, I also use it to finish detailing unpainted exterior plastic pieces, such as the black textured trim on some vehicles, floor mats, etc.

It leaves them clean, restores the original sheen, and leaves nothing slippery behind to get on your hands.

 

[mbrule]

Yes. It's the best interior cleaner I have found.

And, I also use it to finish detailing unpainted exterior plastic pieces, such as the black textured trim on some vehicles, floor mats, etc.

It leaves them clean, restores the original sheen, and leaves nothing slippery behind to get on your hands.

Thanks Ray! I will give it a shot! Do you use any sort of protection on the plastics after cleaning?

You have contributed a lot to this thread and I agree with most of it. However, I question your comments about silicone in polished and waxes. I do not think (and I am no expert!!!!, though I restore cars as a side line, so I have some experience) that all such products contain silicone. I am careful to only use "body shop safe" products, mostly 3M and Meguiares (SP?). I suspect that since they are OK for use ina body shape that they contain no silicone?????

Again thanks for your advice!!

Matt

 

[ray66v]

Thanks Ray! I will give it a shot! Do you use any sort of protection on the plastics after cleaning?

You have contributed a lot to this thread and I agree with most of it. However, I question your comments about silicone in polished and waxes. I do not think (and I am no expert!!!!, though I restore cars as a side line, so I have some experience) that all such products contain silicone. I am careful to only use "body shop safe" products, mostly 3M and Meguiares (SP?). I suspect that since they are OK for use ina body shape that they contain no silicone?????

Again thanks for your advice!!

Matt

That's why I never said all products contain silicone. Most products do have some silicone in them. Products that are considered "Body shop safe" either have very low levels of silicone, or other chemicals that make them easier to apply. That's why you can buff an old car with body shop safe products, and it will still bead water when you wash it.

Crystal Shine has low levels of silicone, but will not cause contamination in the body shop, if used with commonsense, and some care. We did never had any problem as a result of using it.

When I use a vinyl protectant, I use a low gloss one, and take care not to apply it to areas that are touched during normal operation of the vehicle. These products are mostly made from powerful silicones and are extreme contaminates in the body shop. Therefore, I avoid using them as much as possible.

I don't often buy vinyl protectant. When I do, I go to the boat store, (they seem to be the only ones around here with a selection of low gloss stuff), and buy one. I thought the last one was a Meguiars product. But, I can't find the bottle right now.

 

[mbrule]

Thanks again Ray, appreciate your insight.