My no split log splitter!

[PHIL850]

I bought someone else's project log splitter (frame with piston) and started building the rest
of it up with some new parts from Northern Hydraulics. Got it assembled, filled it with Hydrualic fluid, fired it up and yahoo the piston goes in and out no problem! Tested many in/out cycles and she works great. Put a small oak long on it, and pull the lever and guess what? She won't even attempt to split the log! Ram comes out up against the log and stops. Engine loads up, but no push. I try to hear if the relief is opening, but of course my ears aren't working their best at this stage in the game. I mean this thing just comes up against the log and stops. The wedge barely puts a mark in the log. I have ordered a 3000 psi gauge to put on the pressure side of the valve to see whats going on, but thought I might bounce this off a few of you for your thoughts as well. All the hydraulic components are NEW with the exception of the piston and Tank. I am using a Haldex 2 stage 11 GPM pump, a Prince LS 3000 25 GPM detent valve, Northern brand external 125 micro 15 gal/min suction strainer (cartridge type), 3/4 suction and return lines (proper suction hose) and 1/2" pressure lines. The tank is full of new Hydro fluid. although it does appear to be a little foamy to me. Could I be sucking Air on this external suction screen?

Other notes: the tank was originaly pretty gummed up and I flushed it a few times to remove Gak and sludge with some tranny fluid prior to filling with new fluid. Could the strainer be plugged up already with more sludge from the tank?

At any rate. I do plan to put a gauge on this (more money) and see what is going on. Any and all opinions are very much welcomed!!

thanks, Phil

 

[glastron23]

can't really see the top of the valve but it looks as if the port near the handle is going to the base of the cylinder???? that should be the "A" port and it should be on the rod side of the cylinder????
could have some crap under the PR valve that may need to be cleaned out... the pressure gauge will tell the tale.

 

[PHIL850]

Port "A" is the port away from the Handle. Also the when retracting the ram, the detent portion of the valve functions correctly and kicks out upon completion of the Ram retracting. Waiting on that gauge at this point. I'll be a bit up set if the relief valve is not set right. According to the spec it is suppose to be factory set at 2250 PSI. time will tell on that one.

thanks, Phil

 

[glastron23]

sorry about that Phil... looked at the wrong valve on the web site, just checked mine and it's plumbed like yours... when you first start these things there is a lot of STUFF floating around and it can jam under the PR valve or the pressure/flow valve in the pump, the gauge will tell all. Jim

 

[mrmikey]

Hard to tell without a gauge inline. Could be the seals are shot in the cylinder.
On another note, galvanized fittings are not the best thing to use on a hydraulic system. The zinc had a tendancy to spall off which obviously is not a good thing.
Is the tank vented? Hard to tell from the pics, it looks like a plug in top of the fill pipe. If it's not vented to atmosphere you'll either cause a vacuum or pressure in the tank.
Your filter, is it a correct type, a suction filter since you have it on the suction side of the pump? Most filters go on the return side of the valve just before the tank. Suction strainers are a lot coarser because if the suction side of the pump plugs up, the pump will cavitate causing more damage than a small piece of dirt. I've never used a suction filter, don't like 'em for that reason.....Mike

 

[wdchyd]

Your filter, is it a correct type, a suction filter since you have it on the suction side of the pump? Most filters go on the return side of the valve just before the tank. Suction strainers are a lot coarser because if the suction side of the pump plugs up, the pump will cavitate causing more damage than a small piece of dirt. I've never used a suction filter, don't like 'em for that reason.....Mike

Don't like the return filter on the suction side of that pump......good way to starve it.....

 

[AKKAMAAN]

Agree with Bill/wdchyd!

First of all, you have to move that filter away from the suction side, that have highest priority now. Install then as a 20 gpm, 10-15micron, return side filter, between control valve and reservoir....also make sure manifold have a built in, low pressure, by pass valve

btw, what "mesh size" is this filter now...150micro or 15micro??

If you use a fill cap strainer and a return filter, you will not get these problems....
Also it looks like there is non breaded water hose...use appropriate spiral breaded suction hose instead....

 

[tcreeley]

I used one of Northern's 11 gpm 2 stage pumps to run my mini-backhoe that I bought from them. I run it with an 8 hp tecumseh. What size motor are you using? Too small can be a problem and too big is wasted energy. The mini backhoe originally came with a 1.2 gpm single stage and a 5 hp motor. It was way too slow. The flow into the pump has to be at least 3/4". I have a piece of clear hose in the line and I can see the oil move - on the way to the filter.
Good luck- maybe it's easy and you have the hoses crossed as someone suggested. That filter should be on the return to the tank, not on the suction outlet to the pump. The filter is probably starving the pump on oil.

 

[FredH]

Just looked at my splitter and have to agree about filter location . Needs to be on the return side not suction side .

Here is what my splitter looks like :




Fred H.

 

[wdchyd]

Don't like the return filter on the suction side of that pump......good way to starve it.....

Sorry, My mistake, I didn't read enough to see you mounted on a "Suction strainer"
Buyers Replacement Element Kit for Item# 4014 | Hydraulic Accessories | Northern Tool + Equipment
and not a return filter (paper type)......

 

[mrmikey]

Sorry, My mistake, I didn't read enough to see you mounted on a "Suction strainer"

Ditto, didn't see that neither. Stiill doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't be using it .....Mike

 

[wdchyd]

Having it probably won't be as bad if some junk or crud flushes out of that reservoir though......It's a trade off...

 

[PHIL850]

To all. that is a SUCTION STRAINER in the photo not a Filter. It is a cartridge model, (northern 4014) as the tank design, (not mine) didn't fit the usual in tank strainer very well. The filler for the tank has a breather on it at this time. I am planning on adding one that has the proper filtering there as well. However operation of the unit with the filler unplugged has no effect.

thnaks, PHil C.

 

[PHIL850]

it s not a filter, it is a suction screen,, cartridge type 125 mesh

 

[AKKAMAAN]

Ram comes out up against the log and stops. Engine loads up, but no push.

extend cylinder, de-attach the rod side hose from valve, plug valve port, push extend and look for oil coming out of the rod side hose...if so, piston seal is leaking....

I have ordered a 3000 psi gauge to put on the pressure side of the valve to see whats going on

Basically you already know that there is no pressure...

I am using a Haldex 2 stage 11 GPM pump

Does the pump have 1/2" NPTF inlet port, or 1" tube? You say 3/4" suction hose so I assume 1/2" NPTF then??!! This Haldex-Barnes, 11 gpm pump, is availabe with 1" tube on suction side...

Northern brand external 125 micro 15 gal/min suction strainer (cartridge type)

3/4 suction and return lines

Depending on bore diameter vs rod diameter, your max return flow will be between 25-33% higher than pump flow when retracting. Take that in concideration when choosing return filter and return lines...
3/4" is ok for return line, but way below size for proper suction line, especially with a long bend, a 90 deg elbow, suction strainer, fittings ID smaller than 3/4", no help from gravity/pump above tank...3/4" will make 8ft/sec, and not more than 4 ft/sec is recommended in suction lines...1" >> 4.5 ft/sec and 1 1/8" >> 3.6 ft/sec

and 1/2" pressure lines

good

little foamy to me. Could I be sucking Air on this external suction screen?

Ideal plumbing on suction side is a one piece, short, large size, straight hose, with no strainer....You have nothing of that....if you use high viscosity oil, it is really asking for trouble....the more restricted suction side is, the more likely air will be sucked in....you have 9 (nine) potential spots for suction air leak

Could the strainer be plugged up already with more sludge from the tank?

Not if you really cleaned the entire tank....but it is possible. Check it out...I would start with bypassing the strainer, upgrade suction line size, will require some new fittings on the pump, tank port seem to be 1" or more already...

 

[PHIL850]

extend cylinder, de-attach the rod side hose from valve, plug valve port, push extend and look for oil coming out of the rod side hose...if so, piston seal is leaking....

Good Idea, I'll have to give this a shot.


Basically you already know that there is no pressure...

I do have some pressure as the return detent is working correctly when the ram retracts. According to the Valve spec the detent function requires a min of 1000 PSI to work. I want the gauge at this point to see if the relief is set correctly and if not adjust it to spec.


Does the pump have 1/2" NPTF inlet port, or 1" tube? You say 3/4" suction hose so I assume 1/2" NPTF then??!! This Haldex-Barnes, 11 gpm pump, is availabe with 1" tube on suction side...

This pump has a 3/4" suction tube not a 1" or a 1/2" NPT. As such I used 3/4" ID suction line.


Depending on bore diameter vs rod diameter, your max return flow will be between 25-33% higher than pump flow when retracting. Take that in concideration when choosing return filter and return lines...

Thanks, as I do intend to put a return filter on this when it is finally up and running. I did leave a place in the line to install one in the future.

Ideal plumbing on suction side is a one piece, short, large size, straight hose, with no strainer....You have nothing of that....if you use high viscosity oil, it is really asking for trouble....the more restricted suction side is, the more likely air will be sucked in....you have 9 (nine) potential spots for suction air leak

Ideal plumping bigger is better, however I went with 3/4 since that was the fitting on the pump. I can't aggree with you regarding NO use of a suction strainer. Every Hydrualic unit I have. uses a suction strainer. The Diagram from Haldex shows a suction strainer as well.


Cleaning the tank was some what of a blind chore. the tank was made from Boxing in the H beam with 1/4" plate. I filled it with a mixture of Methanol and ATF and rocked the unit back a forth several times and then would repeat the process after draining it. The tank appeared to have had some water mixed with the old hydraulic fluid in it as I would get clumps of some sort of emulsion when it was drain. I repeated this until the draining process ran clear. The new fluid hasn't shown any signs of water or emulsion at this point.

regards, Phil

 

[AKKAMAAN]

I can't aggree with you regarding NO use of a suction strainer. Every Hydrualic unit I have. uses a suction strainer. The Diagram from Haldex shows a suction strainer as well.

Every hydraulic system/pump should have 2 mandatory gauges.
One low pressure/vacuum gauge on pump inlet to monitor inlet pressure.
And one high pressure gauge on pump outlet, to monitor pump outlet pressure.

You can hook up ten suction strainers on suction line, as long as suction pressure do not drop more than a few psi below atmospheric pressure. That inlet suction pressure dictates if pump is getting starved or not, and if air is getting sucked in or not. By sizing/designing correctly one can prevent/eliminate inlet pressure drop, and system will work great.

A suction strainer prevents debris that enter the fill cap, from entering pump. All other contaminates/debris, that comes back from the system, will be taken care of by the return filter. Thats why a fill cap strainer will do the same job as a suction strainer. Inside the reservoir, should always be considered the cleanest part of the system. I actually advocate for "pressure refill" through a return filter, but that is not with in a budget of low cost equipment like a log splitter etc, so "pour refill" through a fill cap strainer is the second best alternative....

 

[HydroTek]

Looking through this thread, I see no mention of the cylinder diameter. Is that a 3 inch cylinder I see in your pics? if so it will not work very well unless you use 2500 psi or more. Why you ask would I say that ...I have a very similar setup to yours with a 4 inch cylinder ..splits most anything I can put on it. :thumbsup:

Oh ..did I mention my brother in law borrowed my splitter and broke the cylinder head? Not to worry though he replaced the broken cylinder with a new one ..a 3 incher ..now my splitter is almost useless. The only saving part of this story is ...by upping the pressure to more than it needs to be, the splitter works again, but frequently will not split a gnarly piece of wood.
.

 

[moose13]

Maybe i missed it but how big is your reservoir?
From the pictures its very hard to tell, but it looks small.

 

[sizzami]

I agree the symptoms indicate that the cylinder is starving for oil the reason it works on the return is because of the rod volume compensating for the small volume of oil just my opinion