building a firewood processer

[ihuntbear]

need some info from you hydraulic experts.I'm building a firewood processer.It has three hydraulic motors to run the conveyers,one cylinder to clamp the log,one cylinder to lower the saw,and one motor to turn the saw.My delema is how do i plumb this thing? And what valves do I need ? I know how to plumb for the conveyers but I don't under stand how to get the saw motor turning then lower the saw.It is based off the DYNA wood processer that runs off a PTO pump.If you say call them,I already did and won't give any info Dyna Firewood Processor Video
I have a 21 gpm PTO pump,2 cylinders,one high speed saw motor running 3000 rpm 19 gpm , three low speed motors and a pressure relief valve.What else do i need ?A drawing would be nice

 

[ferguson123]

need some info from you hydraulic experts.I'm building a firewood processer.It has three hydraulic motors to run the conveyers,one cylinder to clamp the log,one cylinder to lower the saw,and one motor to turn the saw.My delema is how do i plumb this thing? And what valves do I need ? I know how to plumb for the conveyers but I don't under stand how to get the saw motor turning then lower the saw.It is based off the DYNA wood processer that runs off a PTO pump.If you say call them,I already did and won't give any info Dyna Firewood Processor Video
I have a 21 gpm PTO pump,2 cylinders,one high speed saw motor running 3000 rpm 19 gpm , three low speed motors and a pressure relief valve.What else do i need ?A drawing would be nice

Do you want it to be all automatic then? the conveyer manual maybe

 

[J_J]

If it is going to be an open center system, the all valves will be in series. The first valve upstream , will interrupt the flow, and may take all of the flow. Is there anything you want running all the time?

one spool to load log
one spool to put log in position for cutting
one motor spool for hyd motor for setting log
one motor spool for hyd saw
one spool to push hyd saw
one spool for the ram
one spool for wedge
one motor spool with detent for conveyer

one cyl to load log
one hyd motor to set log
one cyl to push chainsaw
one cyl for log splitter
one cyl for wedge
one hyd motor for conveyer

You could make some of the spools do double duty with a selector valve by throwing a switch. The hyd saw push cyl and the log position cyl can use the same spool with a selector valve.

How about a conveyer. It would run all the time. Everything else is sequenced.

Tell us the sequence of operation.

I saw where one guy raised a lever manually for the hyd chainsaw to cut. Saved one cyl.

You could use one spool per cyl, or use one spool and a selector valve for two cyl.

 

[nike]

Attach the motor for the chain to the chain bar fixed, then have the cylinder that lowers the bar attached to the motor bracket. Have this pivot. :thumbsup:\
Then you must figure out a way of oiling the chain...maybe a dead chainsaw's oiling system?

 

[ihuntbear]

here is the sequence.tractor loads logs onto the table,the motor is activated and moves a log into the trough.The another motor is activated and brings the log toward the saw to the length to cut then stops.then a cylinder is activated to clamp the log.this is where I have a problem is ,the saw motor starts and another cylinder is activated to bring the saw down.
The problem I have is if you watch the video you will notice the saw starts and cuts the log with one valve.Why can't I use two valves ,one to start the saw and the other to lower the saw with an adjustable line throttle valve to adjust the speed to lower the saw? Also do I use joysticks or a 6 bank of valves with one motor spool

 

[J_J]

You can start the saw and run the hyd saw with a solenoid valve, and use a spool valve to activate the cyl which will push the saw. The saw will run as long you hold the switch on.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-5112-NC&catname=hydraulic

As far as a joystick verses separate handles, that would be how dextrous you are. It will probably be what you get use to.

 

[glastron23]

oh my god Ihuntbear ..... you are bringing up the night mare i had building mine.... YouTube - Home made wood processor the video was of the first piece of wood to go into it, i was trying to set the flow/pressure and trying to set the timing of some of the sequence valves. we only had a 15 hp engine on this , we now have 28 hp (fixed some problems we knew we had when we built it)
One question.. do you have any hydraulic experience ????
Next question.. do you have a REALLY GOOD hydraulic shop near by ???
Next question ... how much time do you have ??
Next question ... how much hair do you have left...LOL
To run this thing we installed a triple gear pump, 1 section at 10 gpm for the saw, 1 section at 10 gpm for the splitter and 1 section at 5 gpm for all the other cylinders and motor for the log advance.
We installed a sequence valve on the log clamp/saw unit, this is to make sure that the log is clamped down before the saw starts to drop to cut and that the saw is all the way retracted before the clamp is released to advance the log for the next cut.
if you are going to install a conveyor this motor can run on the hydraulics from the splitter, the oil is just dumped back to tank most of the time any way.
Hope this scares you enough to STOP NOW... DO NOT GO ANY FURTHER... BACK AWAY.. NO RUN... lol have fun with it... Jim

 

[ihuntbear]

can't stop now.To much money invested.I do have a really good hyd shop five miles away.they say the only problem they see is getting the saw and cyl to work.They suggest to use two spool valves for them.One for the saw motor and one for the cylinder with a with a flow throttle valve to slow it to the cyl speed i need.

 

[ihuntbear]

JJ what do you mean use a solnoid valve.Do I install before the bank of valves .JJ is it possible to draw a schematic for me.There is three hyd motors for conveyers ,one motor for the saw,one cylinder for lowering and raising the saw,one cylinder for the clamp to hold logs down .the log splitter can run off a seperate pump but would like to run off the same one as the processer does

 

[AKKAMAAN]

can't stop now.To much money invested.I do have a really good hyd shop five miles away.they say the only problem they see is getting the saw and cyl to work.They suggest to use two spool valves for them.One for the saw motor and one for the cylinder with a with a flow throttle valve to slow it to the cyl speed i need.

Jim, had a great preventive advice for you....

But since you are already heavily vested in the project, I'll add my two cents..

You can basically forget all simultaneous operation of the hydraulics with a one pump, open center system...The saw needs all power it can get while cutting....

You need to be at a minimum 2500psi pump pressure for the system, I would design for 3000psi...
Your saw motor speed needs to be calculated, not assumed, do not count on 3000rpm until you have support from calculations...how do you think you can get 3000 rpm from that 19 gpm motor with a 21 gp pump?? Your over all flow losses on that circuit will at least be 20-25%....that put you on less than 17 gpm turning the motor...

To make saw operate on one single valve function, Bar feed, saw turn, and bar lubrication, you need an advanced bar unit like this...see Danzco

or a used oned from a grapple saw, like this Hultdins...

The hydraulic circuit would then look like this...

A 2-position 4-way solenoid valve can be used...see this pdf

Sorry, ihuntbear, your questions show that you will struggle a lot with this project, it will be a lot of learning by doing, it will take "a year" to make it running descent, quite a few 1000$ 's, if not more.....Most of it into the saw unit....

I do not think anyone here will make a drawing that "stands in the wind", since you are already committed to the wrong hardware....

Go to Arboristsite and talk to more experienced Processor builders....here is a link to one of them...I sure love this project...

Youtube video from feb 2009
Youtube video from may 2010
And these guys are still working on it, tuning and improving...But it sure runs nicely....

Good Luck!

I am out!!

 

[J_J]

JJ what do you mean use a solnoid valve.Do I install before the bank of valves .JJ is it possible to draw a schematic for me.There is three hyd motors for conveyers ,one motor for the saw,one cylinder for lowering and raising the saw,one cylinder for the clamp to hold logs down .the log splitter can run off a seperate pump but would like to run off the same one as the processer does

AKKAMAAN, Is right, you probably will need at least three pumps. There are too many things going on. The conveyer hyd motor is the only hyd motor that will run all the time. The log position motor only runs momentary to position the log. The log splitter could be automatic if a sensor is installed to detect a log. The clamping cyl is only used to clamp the log. The log lift is only used to load the log in the chute.

The hyd saw could be a circular saw driven by a hyd motor, or a hyd chainsaw. The circular saw should be running all the time to keep the rpm's up. The hyd chainsaw can start up in an instant, and is only used for the full cut. You could also run the circular saw off the PTO shaft. Some of the processors have a log stop at the end to set the log for say 16 in cuts or 24 in cuts. That will take another cyl and valve.

Is the wood processor PTO driven, or separate engine?

You will need a large reservoir with fan to cool the hyd fluid.

Solenoid valves could be used as selector valves to select different cyl for different jobs. For instance, with solenoid off, the log lift valve could be used. Flip the switch, and the same valve would operate the wedge. Those are two intermittent operations.

You should really think this thing carefully in order to save time and money, and parts.

 

[ihuntbear]

JJ I bought some saw parts from DANZCO.Have you ever talked to Ed.No personality.If you call him for some info on some part he has he won't answer your question unless you buy the part.Unbelievable..He has a block that controls the saw but won't sell it to me because I didn't buy the saw from him.the saw I have is the same saw he sells.I'm not knocking him down but he is very independant.Thats why I'm asking you hydraulic gurus.I know you guys have the answers I'm looking for.Like I said I'm to far into it to stop now

 

[ihuntbear]

glastron23 if I manually lowered the saw by hand with some type of handle would it be easier to get this thing working? is that where you had all the problems? everything looks so easy watching utube vids.put the log in place saw starts then lowers to cut the log

 

[J_J]

The one video I saw, the operator raised a lever that pivoted the saw, and he controlled the pressure on the cut by listening to the saw sounds. He could even put a pressure gage on the saw to monitor the pressure. Some of the hyd saws are open center , and work when you pull the trigger. If you add a solenoid valve and switch before the saw, then lock down the trigger, you can set it so the hyd chain saw comes on when you raise the lever to cut the log.

ihuntbear

I have been in a similar situation, where a manufacture would not sell a part because I did not purchase the machine from him. He just lost a sale, and I probably would not buy from him after that.
There are a lot of stupid people out there.

 

[ihuntbear]

JJ I could even hook the solenoid to a car door light switch to activate the solenoid.When the saw starts to come down the saw motor is powered up or put a trigger on the lever.
if I use a solenoid , would it hurt the motor with the sudden on and off of flow ?

 

[glastron23]

First of all, i see you are in New Brunswick??? where /// i'm outside of Fredericton
We had several problems on the saw lowering. the first was that we are running 5 gpm @ 2200 psi on a 6 spool valve bank.
spool 1 is empty
spool 2 runs the splitter wedge up and down,
spool 3 runs the wood advance motor
spool 4 runs the the saw/log clamp (these go through a sequence valve, clamp is lowered to the wood-pressure raises to 500psi then activates the saw cylinder to lower---- finish the cut, raise the saw up till it hits the stop --- pressure raises to 500 psi then the clamp releases)
spool 5 runs the log lift cylinders
spool 6 is empty
the problem is that you only need 1/2 gal and 500 psi to run the saw cylinder because we need to lower the saw slowly and under control, at first we feathered the valve but this only created a near deadhead condition due to the extreme amount of feathering required. we had to install a flow/pressure circuit in the saw lower hose to control it. this helped a lot.
It's not the pressure on the saw cylinder you need to monitor, it's the hydraulic oil pressure that the saw motor is using, if the wood is soft, the chain is sharp and you aren't pushing the blade too much then the pressure will be very low. But hit a few rocks, a good chunk of rock maple and push it too fast you will stall the saw---bend a chain bar--- brake the saw mount....LOL been there ... after a while you can learn to use it by the sound.
as far as the saw motor (parker F11) we installed rotary motor control valve and a bypass valve. the rotary valve is used to stop/start the saw chain and the bypass is plumbed just before the motor on the pressure side, when the saw is returned to the stow position it comes in contact with the bypass and shuts off the saw (directs the oil to tank) when the saw is lowered the bypass is closed and the oil goes the the saw motor
for the chain oiler we used a small bore air cylinder, when the saw is stroked up , the air cylinder draws oil from the chain oil tank through a check valve (5psi) into the base of the cylinder . when the saw to lowered the oil is forced through another check valve (5psi) up to the bar via a flow control valve . there is another check valve (65 psi) tee'd into this circuit that acts as a pressure relief.
i will post pics later .. Jim

 

[glastron23]

pics of unit

 

[ihuntbear]

i live in moncton.Nice looking processer

 

[glastron23]

Bear... you have 2 really good shops there... Hydro Static and TRC ..

 

[ihuntbear]

ya i know I've been dealing with maritime hydraulics.They are the ones that told me to use one motor spool for the saw and one cylinder spool with a regulater on the cylinder to drop the saw.He said no matter what size log i put threw it the cylinder should come down the same speed.This is starting to give me a headeach.I kind of like the idea that JJ said.Use a solenoid for the saw with some kind of button on the lever to start and a valve for the cylinder