Fencing brace-post pulling up during install ... Suggestions?

[beppington]

Been replacing an old 4-wire barbed wire fence with new fence for 6-7 months now, & encountered a problem this past weekend.

See diagram below. New fence is 4x4x8' p.t. posts, 8' spacing, Red Brand "non-climb" horse fence wire mesh, & a single 1x6 rough sawn p.t. board along the top as the last piece.

The mesh rolls are 200' long, so we've been bracing a section every 200', so the mesh joints lands on, or close to, a braced section.

This past weekend when stretching the mesh against a braced section, the braced section's far-end post wanted to pull up out of the ground. It got up about 4" before we saw it & backed off. We had been installing only the red brace wire on all the previous brace sections, but when this post started lifting out, we added the second, blue brace wire. That helped, but the post still really wants to come out I think. We just didn't tension the wire as much as I would've wanted to.

This is the first time we've had this happen, with the first 7 braced sections not having this problem. On the others we could really crank the wire mesh tight as all get out, & no posts pulled up. There are no extreme slopes or anything; It's all fairly level.

I'd appreciate any suggestions ... :confused2:

 

[MMagis]

First, let me say that that’s the best diagram I’ve ever seen posted.
In the end, you’re going to need both the red and blue brace wires on all of the braces. Once you get everything tied together, each brace could have pressure coming from both directions. As it is right now, the red wire only should be okay since the pressure is only coming in that one direction. But, in theory that post should not be pulling up at this point. The only thing that comes to mind is perhaps the soil is loose? The horizontal brace being too low could cause it, but I know a lot of folks make an “H” and have no problems. Based on your diagram yours should be fine, that’s how I place mine. Just to make sure I’m not seeing something wrong, the post that’s pulling up doesn’t have any pressure pulling it to the left at this point, correct? It would only have the pressure from the fence pulling it to the right? If that’s right, that post SHOULDN’T being pulling up. Either loose soil or not set deep enough are the only things I can think of offhand.

 

[beppington]

First, let me say that that's the best diagram I've ever seen posted.

Why thank you! I've got me a handy/dandy program called "TurboCAD". Believe it or not I paid 5 bucks for it at Office Depot 8 or 10 years ago. Never bothered trying to upgrade, because it works great for my purposes.

In the end, you're going to need both the red and blue brace wires on all of the braces. Once you get everything tied together, each brace could have pressure coming from both directions. As it is right now, the red wire only should be okay since the pressure is only coming in that one direction.

Understood, but until this past weekend we had had no problems with just the red brace wire. And I have the 1x6 boards on, so there's not much chance any of the others will try to come up now ... I don't think

But, in theory that post should not be pulling up at this point.

That's what I thought, so ... hmmmm ...

The only thing that comes to mind is perhaps the soil is loose?

I don't think it is. We tamped the heck out of these things, on all 4 sides.

The horizontal brace being too low could cause it, but I know a lot of folks make an 貊ｴ and have no problems.

That diagram is to-scale, i.e. the permanent horizontal brace is ~36 above ground. The wire's 48" tall.

Based on your diagram yours should be fine, that's how I place mine.

Again, that's what I thought ... till that sucker started pulling up :confused2:

Just to make sure I'm not seeing something wrong, the post that's pulling up doesn't have any pressure pulling it to the left at this point, correct?

Correct.

It would only have the pressure from the fence pulling it to the right?

Correct.

If that's right, that post SHOULDN'T being pulling up.

:confused2:

Either loose soil or not set deep enough are the only things I can think of offhand.

All posts are 36" deep ... except 3 or 4 (out of about 900' of fence) where we hit rock & gave up. All posts near this brace section are 36" minimum.

Hmmm ...

 

[hawkeye08]

I would put the temporary brace on at a diagonal, near where the pulling is on left top and then go down to bottom of post that is pulling out of the ground.

 

[beppington]

I would put the temporary brace on at a diagonal, near where the pulling is on left top and then go down to bottom of post that is pulling out of the ground.

Hey, I think that might do it!

 

[MMagis]

I need some help understanding what purpose that temporary brace wire will serve.

 

[beppington]

I need some help understanding what purpose that temporary brace wire will serve.

Without it the two come-alongs would be pulling on that far-left post, which would not be braced at all. They would pull it right over/ out of the ground.

Edit: Sorry, I thought you wrote "temporary brace"; I missed the "temporary brace wire" part ... There's no temporary brace wire.
.
.

 

[MMagis]

Now I see, I thought the suggested temporary brace was a wire, but it’s suggesting making the horizontal brace diagonal instead. That makes more sense, but still won’t solve the problem in the long run

 

[Ranger Rick]

The way I see it is that your top come along is pulling against the temporary horizontal brace and pushing the post out of the ground. I would run a brace wire from the bottom of the post that the come alongs are attached to up to the top of the post that is pulling out of the ground. This would resist the force of the come alongs pulling to stretch the fence. If your right hand post was a corner I would use one wire (your blue) to brace the corner. Mid run I think I would use two brace wires like you have.
Rick

 

[grsthegreat]

ive installed the same thing for years, and 1 use 2 wires (red and blue).

I also put all my wooden posts in concrete...this is the only way that they stay in the ground where i live. The post are all 36" in the ground.

something ive been doing lately is to use the tractor bucket as the "temporary post" to pull against. that way i have the wire free to connect to the last post. has saved me alot of time.

 

[boggen]

when ya tied the end of the wire mesh on, you may have done so at an angle to the post.

((other words it would be like pulling out a tree roots *see below post*))
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/129506-tree-puller-hard-get-trees.html

make sure the wire / staples holding the end of mesh, is straight and not at an angle.

--------------------
other things, if you used a post hole digger that was mounted to tractor. you may have angled the hole some, allowing post to work itself out.

post is not deep enough.

the side of mesh wire you are pulling from, is higher than the other end of mesh that is connected to the posts. it does not take much. if this is case try tighten the mesh half the distance. vs trying to tighten entire 200 feet. just a couple ratchet straps wrapped around a generic post, and hooked into the mesh. and give it a could cranks. that way, the entire 200 feet of mesh weight is not being pulled.

 

[beppington]

ive installed the same thing for years, and 1 use 2 wires (red and blue).

I also put all my wooden posts in concrete...this is the only way that they stay in the ground where i live. The post are all 36" in the ground.

In the very beginning I was using concrete around the brace section posts, but my dad didn't seem to think it was necessary. Maybe I should resume using it ...

 

[beppington]

when ya tied the end of the wire mesh on, you may have done so at an angle to the post.

We've been careful to keep the mesh's vertical wires plumb & parallel to the posts.

((other words it would be like pulling out a tree roots *see below post*))
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/129506-tree-puller-hard-get-trees.html

Are you saying my 8' long braced section isn't long enough? I have seen fences around that have two brace sections in a row.

make sure the wire / staples holding the end of mesh, is straight and not at an angle.

--------------------
other things, if you used a post hole digger that was mounted to tractor. you may have angled the hole some, allowing post to work itself out.

We had been using a 3PH auger, but I discovered I can dig them faster by hand, so all of these were hand dug with post-hole diggers, & they are vertical, as are the posts - used a level.

post is not deep enough.

Well, they are 3' deep. I don't think I can realistically go much deeper with them.

the side of mesh wire you are pulling from, is higher than the other end of mesh that is connected to the posts. it does not take much. if this is case try tighten the mesh half the distance. vs trying to tighten entire 200 feet. just a couple ratchet straps wrapped around a generic post, and hooked into the mesh. and give it a could cranks. that way, the entire 200 feet of mesh weight is not being pulled.

Maybe that would help, too ... just brace sections more often, & pulling from them instead of 200' at once.

 

[WilliamTO-35]

On a related subject, a few years ago I was trying to pull out of the ground two square cedar fence posts that were about 10 feet apart. They were rather stout, at about 10 inches on a side. The posts had been there since before I bought my property. The front loader on my tractor wouldn't budge the posts. I finally dug down deep enough to realize that the posts were actually cedar trees that had been squared off above ground, and the roots of the tree trunks were still in the ground. I gave up on pulling them out, and cut them off a couple of inches below ground .

 

[MMagis]

Concrete is not necessary, 3' is plenty deep, and braces every 200' is more than enough. You can rule those out. Just one more question, the post is pulling up after you release the tension from the come-a-longs, correct? It's the pressure from the fence pulling to the right? Just want to make certain I'm understanding.

 

[J_J]

I had that happen with railroad ties used as fence post, and did not understand it at that time.

The brace post should be braced against undisturbed ground. Could also add a 12 in long and 2 x 6 in wood bottom brace vertical in the hole for the brace to butt against.

If you pull at the pivot point that should not happen. The pivot on your setup is below the fence wire where wood meets wood.. You could temporarily install a brace that goes from the ground to the highest point on the post, and pull from the top of post.

 

[BeeferMan]

I think your problem is you are attaching the fence to the left post when pulling to the left. The fence should be fastened to right post when pulling the fence to the left.

When the the force of pulling the fence is on the right post (wanting to pull the top of that post to the left), that force is transferred to the left post via the horizontal brace, which then puts the blue wire in tension. The tension of the blue wire tries to move the bottom of the right post horizontally (which obviously won't happen) - fence is then braced.

 

[SandburRanch]

Un-even comealong tension. The top one is tighter. Use only one centered to solve the problem.

 

[boggen]

Un-even comealong tension. The top one is tighter. Use only one centered to solve the problem.

adding on to SandburRanch statement.

create a DIY mesh tightener....

two 2 x 6's one on each side of the wire mesh fence.

use bolts and nuts, with washers to bolt the 2x6's together sandwiching the wire mesh.

then wrap a chain or like, around center of the 2x6's and tighten the wire mesh.

the 2x6's, help keep the wire mesh from being distorted as you tighten things up.

it gets a little tiresome, dealing with about 8 plus bolts per each section. but *shrugs*

 

[beppington]

Concrete is not necessary, 3' is plenty deep, and braces every 200' is more than enough. You can rule those out. Just one more question, the post is pulling up after you release the tension from the come-a-longs, correct? It's the pressure from the fence pulling to the right? Just want to make certain I'm understanding.

No, it began coming up while tensioning. The first time we noticed it, it was about 4" up. We stopped, let off the come-along tension, and added the blue wire. After that, we started tensioning again, and that helped some, but it started coming up a little bit again, maybe 1/2", before we had the wire as tight as I thought it should be able to go, judging from our previously tensioned sections. This last problematic section of wire is pretty darn tight right now, but I thought it could use just a tad more tension to really get all the kinks out - but we were pretty sure that post would come further up/out, so we stopped.