Buying Advice Bobcat Track loader No MSRP/negotiation ?

[reedfarm]

So, let me ge this right - there are really people that go buy stuff with no idea what the cost is and just get it ? Really ? I look at the adds and buy stuff based on prices and sales as well as features. The point I was trying to make is that Bobcat has a secretive nature as to the price of their product. What if I am deciding if I want a s250 or s300. I could not even get a starting price, and somehow that is ok to some on here ? wow. In this day and age I know the price of everything I get - from milk and bread to cars and tractors.
As for the dealer making money - ordering a machine for me, with no money out of the dealerships pocket and not having to have it sit on their lot and still making even the tiny 1.3 % as the "ex dealer" says. Trust me I would do that over and over if given the chance. I was not looking to "steal" a machine. I just wanted a square deal. Thanks Countrygirl for pointing out how absolutely silly some of the coments have been. :thumbsup: I am glad you found a good machine at a fair price. I got a used one from 200 miles away and my local guy was overjoyed that I was able to get a bobcat and even said call him with the VIN and he would tell me the history on the machine. He understood that one more bobcat owner in his area is one more customer for him. I did not buy anything from him but still think we already have a good relationship with him. But I guess that some people don't think that way and maybe that is why they are "ex" dealers

 

[Digdeep]

So, let me ge this right - there are really people that go buy stuff with no idea what the cost is and just get it ? Really ? I look at the adds and buy stuff based on prices and sales as well as features. The point I was trying to make is that Bobcat has a secretive nature as to the price of their product. What if I am deciding if I want a s250 or s300. I could not even get a starting price, and somehow that is ok to some on here ? wow. In this day and age I know the price of everything I get - from milk and bread to cars and tractors.
As for the dealer making money - ordering a machine for me, with no money out of the dealerships pocket and not having to have it sit on their lot and still making even the tiny 1.3 % as the "ex dealer" says. Trust me I would do that over and over if given the chance. I was not looking to "steal" a machine. I just wanted a square deal. Thanks Countrygirl for pointing out how absolutely silly some of the coments have been. :thumbsup: I am glad you found a good machine at a fair price. I got a used one from 200 miles away and my local guy was overjoyed that I was able to get a bobcat and even said call him with the VIN and he would tell me the history on the machine. He understood that one more bobcat owner in his area is one more customer for him. I did not buy anything from him but still think we already have a good relationship with him. But I guess that some people don't think that way and maybe that is why they are "ex" dealers

I never said that you shouln't be given a starting price. As a matter of fact, I find it kind of silly that you didn't get one. I was also under the impression that the machine that you wanted a quote for was on the lot, which means that it was either being floorplanned by Bobcat, or the dealer was making the interest payments already, and trust me, you wouldn't do 1.3% deals over and over if given the chance if you had to support the machine in any way. You evidently don't have to make a payroll.

There are two sides to this tale, the one your on (customer) and the dealer's side. I'm not saying that I am always correct, but I was on the dealer's side and now I'm a machine purchaser and they're two completely different things. Also, a dealer loves it when a customer buys used equipment regardless of where it came from. Everything he does to it is positive revenue with no exposure to warranty support...retail service and parts business is the best business. I'm glad you found a machine.

 

[Scooby074]

This thread reminds me why dealerships ive worked at would cringe and almost turn away the "weekend Warrior" types.

Both in sales and in service. Most have no concept of the costs involved in both parts and labour and running the dealership itself. Most were nickel and dimer's.

 

[Digdeep]

This thread reminds me why dealerships ive worked at would cringe and almost turn away the "weekend Warrior" types.

Both in sales and in service. Most have no concept of the costs involved in both parts and labour and running the dealership itself. Most were nickel and dimer's.

I agree completely. There is a huge diference between being a small contractor or a personal machine owner and running a dealership. All have their costs, but they are different animals.

First off, I do know that there are bad dealers out there, and thankfully most of them don't last long.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with a customer wanting to get a fair price, but unfortunately, most don't understand the tenants of the constraints that dealers have regarding costs that are there regardless of whether the customer buys a new machine from another dealer outside of their territory (used machies don't count). I guess as long as they can screw every penny out of the sale they're happy.

I liken it to having a choice to buy from local businesses or buying online. You certainly save money when you buy online, but I would rather pay a little bit more knowing that I'm putting my money back into my community, supporting jobs in my local community, etc.

One of the examples used in this thread was a T320 bought for $7k cheaper and a mulcher bought for $16k. I know for a fact that the dealer that sold the mulcher lost at least $2700 not counting freight. He did make some money on the machine, but the overall margin was $1300 on about $99k worth of product. The distant dealer that sold it is certainly happy with the sale because he never has to see the customer or the machine in his shop. The local dealer isn't so lucky. He has a local customer that put the screews to him. Understand that $7k is extreme regarding the price difference between two exact machines, but I had many customers whine and moan about how they could buy the same machine from another dealer who wouldn't need to support that customer for $500 less. Evertime I saw that customer I looked at someone who would ***** at me about the extra cost in his service invoice for shop materials, or something else insignificant. Like I said nothing wrong with getting a fair deal, but I hope that those of you that know who you are understand that while your local dealer may be smiling at you as he says he is happy you found a new machine (that of course you didn't buy from him because he was too expensive), he is actually looking right into the eyes of what he considers a cheapskate customer.

 

[Countrygirllana]

Digdeep, you remind me of my first husband, who is always right and who always had to get the last word in. as the other poster said, i guess that's why you are not selling them anymore. i just hope you arent a business teacher, teaching your students how to do business... ha ha. i havent nickle and dimed anyone. i tried to go to my 'somewhat' local guy, who was very expensive. i got the forestry cutter before i even bought a bobcat machine (i had already settled on bobcat brand). so that purchase didnt have anything to do with the other, except that the person who sold me the cutter knew i was in the market for a machine to run it. i had decided that i would look for a used machine because i didnt want to pay quite so much as my local was asking. the other guy called me and said he found one, exactly what i was looking for, already had the forestry application kit on it and it was within my budget. paying cash, you see, is one of those things that if you have enough $$$ thats great, if you dont then you just cant do it, right. so, i went for it. the choice wasnt between buying the more expensive one and the one i got, it was bein able to buy one that i had enough money for. i could have bought a used one and faced the possibility of having to make expensive repairs, or getting the new one w/3 year warranty... i had enough, so i chose the new one. am i a cheapskate for doing that? you may think so, but the local wasnt going to be able to get the business with either option i had. I did tell him about the deal i found and he was surprised that the price was so low, but it was what it was. i got the new machine for not much more that some were wanting for their used stuff. Im happy and not one bit ashamed. if you think for one second that someone should pay $7k more for something just because it's the dealership closer to you, then you are out of your mind. i think most people would beg to differ. I could see you point if it were a few hundred dollars dollars difference, but 7k?... isnt that half of what a teacher makes in 1 year???

 

[chopped]

I have just emailed a letter to dealers and say id like this and that for a model and could they give me a ballpark estimate of cost so I can compare and narrow it down and also not take as much of their time.
and Ive had 4 out of 5 return emails with prices.(they were all over the place).
A ballpark does save time and frustration when shopping but if they choose to not give the prices then go in and have them quote you on every one. its their time. thats how they want it.
dont let it intimidate you..

 

[brain55]

Here is the deal. I don't think anyone is knocking you for saving $7000, probably everybody here would do the same thing. There will be some perks that your local dealer will likely not extend to you. Warranty policies are pretty clear about not covering field service travel time or repair, diagnostic time, pick-up and delivery charges, or loaner machines. Hopefully you will not need any warranty repairs. When your purchasing dealer is the same as your servicing dealer he is likely to cut a deal on some or all of these things. It would be presumptuous for you to expect these perks from your local dealer now. If he extends these to you, he would be one of very few that will. I would expect to pay for these things now and be happy to have saved the $7000, you will likely come out ahead. There are many that will be disappointed in the local dealers service if he does not extend these perks to them even though the warranty policy is clear about it and you did not buy the machine from him. I'm sure the dealer will be happy for your business, but expect to pay the going rate for any service you receive.

Brian

 

[reedfarm]

You go Countrygirl !
I do think the obsession over "if you need waranty work done they will not be happy" is a silly statement. How does he know what your dealer is thinking ?The dealer gets paid by the factory for waranty work, sure they get a lower rate and may stick you at the back of the service line, but it is not like they are fixing something pro bono if something under waranty breaks. Keeping busy and making a little money is better than having the Cat or Kubota guy down the road working. Lets face it, this is not 1985 - the availability of information as to type, quality, and price of machines on the internet makes "old school" business practices obsolete. Its good that you saved some money and that your local guy understands the new business model and works within its parameters so that you are all happy. Good luck with your new machine. And don't let the "Haters" get you upset. :mur:

 

[brain55]

No offense Reedfarm, but how many years have you spent working at an equipment dealer? We were just trying to share our "real world" experience having worked in different dealerships. If this offends you I'm sorry.

Brian

 

[milkman636]

Dealers turning away service work? Is that really a concern?

Aren't the people perfoming service work often compensated according to the hours of billable service work they perform, not by the commissions from initial sales.

A good parts and service operation will be interested in keeping a base of satisfied customers that call them first when there is a problem. That is their bread and butter. They won't give a !@%& where you bought it.

If a service provider gave me a hassle for not buying from him, I would be happy to explain the math in my decision so he could avoid quoting me too high of prices again in the future.

There also seems to be a pattern for local dealers always quoting higher prices than dealers that are farther away. I have heard of and experinced ths phenomenon all of my life. Why?????

 

[brain55]

I know I didn't say they would turn service work away, I said don't expect the perks that customers that bought from that dealer would get while their machine is covered under warranty, the things that are clearly not covered under warranty, like field service calls, loaner machines, and pick-up & delivery. No dealer will turn away your work, but they will limit perks to loyal customers.

As far as why local dealers will quote higher actually it is non-local dealers that quote lower, I think Digdeep laid that out pretty well. Customers expect those perks that I stated, you cannot provide those perks to your customers if you are only making 1.3% and expect to stay in business. The non-local dealer knows this and knows that he can lower his margin to make the sale because he won't be expected to provide those perks.

Brian

 

[tony Cecil]

I personally depend either a dealer, or very knowledgable independent shop...Of course if the dealer is close to the competition I will do business locally or not at all.....I find this warranty issue to be like a `blanket` that for some reason never seems to work for me...Whatever happens is usually my fault and I pay for it, and the only company that has gone out of their way has been Cat, and I never did business with them, until I was in need..They are expensive

I`m just a regular old fellow, who wants to buy an excavator, at a fair price...No matter how it comes out, I will be buying services..
It is a competitive world out there now, and we all can share our knowledge by using the computer....Maybe there are too many competing firms, and in time they get merged or fall by the wayside...Whoever survives ends up very profitable, and we the customers end up the looser if by chance we purchase the wrong piece of equipment....
Bobcat makes a good quality produce , and my complaint is the lack of a MSRP readily available....and now I also wonder why in the world the dealer the lady was trying to do business with came up with such a price? Man that doesn`t speak highly for his company...Tony

 

[Scooby074]

Buying equipment, especially "heavy" equipment is different than buying a loaf of bread or even a car. Way, way smaller volumes.

Theres certain "intangibles" to being loyal to a local dealer. That amount you "overpay" covers those intangibles.

Who will be at the front of the line, the cheapskate or the guy who the dealership made a bit of profit on?

Who will have their labour reduced on a "tricky" job that took the mech forever?

Loaner machines?

Delivery?

Free/reduced service call and setup?

Cheaper parts?

Stuff like that can be offered to a loyal customer,,, but will not be offered to the cheapskate. Nothing is free, this stuff is paid for when you "overpaid".

Countrygirl, no offense, but you sound pretty green, at least regarding the heavy equipment side of things.

 

[tony Cecil]

I gather you mean really big pieces of equipment? like large bulldozers pans etc...but either way I think a mechanic is charged by a set number of dollars an hour, and obviously the parts would correspond to the size of the machine....

I wonder if the people here that think the dealer should just get the most that can be gotten, are the salesmen that work for the dealership ?? or actually owner operators of the dealership? That would go along way to explain the attitude...Tony

 

[brain55]

Well, I have worked in equipment dealerships for 12+ years of my career. Shop repairs are not what keep the doors open, sales are what keep the doors open. Of course those sales have to be serviced by the shop, but the sales department is our biggest customer. Both of the dealers I worked at, by the time I left, the shops were actually turning a profit for the first time ever.

I spent 8 years working for a large landscape contractor and was responsible for maintaining millions of dollars worth of equipment, trust me there are plenty of perks when you are purchasing the volume of equipment we did.

I have also ran my own mobile equipment repair business. I don't continue working for customers that nickel and dime me every time I do a repair. I charge a reasonable fee and stand behind my work. If I give you a price I try to stick to it and call if there are any unforeseen problems. If you don't like my price I have no problem walking away. My 25 years of experience is worth every penny.

Brian

 

[Scooby074]

I gather you mean really big pieces of equipment? like large bulldozers pans etc...but either way I think a mechanic is charged by a set number of dollars an hour, and obviously the parts would correspond to the size of the machine....

I wonder if the people here that think the dealer should just get the most that can be gotten, are the salesmen that work for the dealership ?? or actually owner operators of the dealership? That would go along way to explain the attitude...Tony

I have some experience in "smaller" machines, but most is in larger equipment. Mostly loaders, excavators, crushers and rock trucks. Some rollers and pavers as well. Even small machines can scare you with parts prices.

Yes my salary was paid by the dealership, but there was times that not all that was passed directly onto the customer. Dealerships will eat some costs for "good" repeat customers.

Ive seen machines come back off lease, and need thousands of dollars in repairs (**** operators) only to get the tab picked up by the dealership.

Of course nothing is free and this came out of the sales margin. Now on a tight margin, could the dealer offer the same benefits? I think thats the thing here. Service is a cost. Its necessary, but not always the gravy train that many think it is.

 

[Digdeep]

Digdeep, you remind me of my first husband, who is always right and who always had to get the last word in. as the other poster said, i guess that's why you are not selling them anymore. i just hope you arent a business teacher, teaching your students how to do business... ha ha. i havent nickle and dimed anyone. i tried to go to my 'somewhat' local guy, who was very expensive. i got the forestry cutter before i even bought a bobcat machine (i had already settled on bobcat brand). so that purchase didnt have anything to do with the other, except that the person who sold me the cutter knew i was in the market for a machine to run it. i had decided that i would look for a used machine because i didnt want to pay quite so much as my local was asking. the other guy called me and said he found one, exactly what i was looking for, already had the forestry application kit on it and it was within my budget. paying cash, you see, is one of those things that if you have enough $$$ thats great, if you dont then you just cant do it, right. so, i went for it. the choice wasnt between buying the more expensive one and the one i got, it was bein able to buy one that i had enough money for. i could have bought a used one and faced the possibility of having to make expensive repairs, or getting the new one w/3 year warranty... i had enough, so i chose the new one. am i a cheapskate for doing that? you may think so, but the local wasnt going to be able to get the business with either option i had. I did tell him about the deal i found and he was surprised that the price was so low, but it was what it was. i got the new machine for not much more that some were wanting for their used stuff. Im happy and not one bit ashamed. if you think for one second that someone should pay $7k more for something just because it's the dealership closer to you, then you are out of your mind. i think most people would beg to differ. I could see you point if it were a few hundred dollars dollars difference, but 7k?... isnt that half of what a teacher makes in 1 year???

First off, I'm glad you found the perfect machine for you. You will probably come out ahead.

However, it's plainly evident that you haven't the faintest clue about the other side, (dealer) so I'll finish by repeating what I said in an earlier post. Your local dealer will always smile at you through clenched teeth. Trust me.

BTW...I was consistently one of Bobcat's top 50 salemen year in and year out in one of the best regions for selling skid steers. I made pretty decent money, but I changed careers because I was tired of spending 12-13 hours a day behind the windshield. My degree is in Mathematics, and I teach advanced math to 8th graders....for a little more than $7k per year.

The funny thing is that those 14 year old students would understand the concepts I've explained better than you have. Best of luck with you machine.

 

[Digdeep]

You go Countrygirl !
I do think the obsession over "if you need waranty work done they will not be happy" is a silly statement. How does he know what your dealer is thinking ?The dealer gets paid by the factory for waranty work, sure they get a lower rate and may stick you at the back of the service line, but it is not like they are fixing something pro bono if something under waranty breaks. Keeping busy and making a little money is better than having the Cat or Kubota guy down the road working. Lets face it, this is not 1985 - the availability of information as to type, quality, and price of machines on the internet makes "old school" business practices obsolete. Its good that you saved some money and that your local guy understands the new business model and works within its parameters so that you are all happy. Good luck with your new machine. And don't let the "Haters" get you upset. :mur:

Not a hater at all. Just offering a point of view from a dealer/salesman perspective.

Unfortunately, warranty doesn't quite work the way you think it does. OEMs will only pay a dealer a "flat rate" on what they deem a resonable time for a repair to be finished. They do not pay travel time, time taken to diagnose a problem, or shop supplies (grease, towels, tools, etc.).

The dealer that sold Countrygirl the machine and mulcher made $1300 on that deal (1.3%). Suppose he was going to support that machine, and for some unforseen reason the machine had a warrantable failure. A service shop must account for all hours worked on a machine, and lets say that the repair took 7 hours of trouble shooting and labor, but Bobcat only pays 4 hours for the repair. Lets also assume that the shop charges out their labor at $90 an hour. The dealer will end up taking a $270 shortfall on the warranty reimbursement and since the failure was attributed to a defect in material or workmanship, the dealer won't charge the customer. That profit of $1300 that a few on here said they would take everyday has now become $1030, or a 21% decrease in margin. Everybody has forgotten to mention that the saleman who sold it needs to be paid out of the original margin as well, probably about $400. So the actual margin for the dealer was really about $900 (not counting any other charges such as interest paid on the floor charges if it went over the standard terms) of which you subtract $270 for the lost labor and you get a whopping profit of.........$630. Thats an approximate profit of 0.6% on $99k worth of equipment.

 

[brain55]

Don't confuse them with the facts Digdeep. We all know business owners are evil and rich, preying on their customers and employees. He probably makes a thousand or more of those sales a year, so what if he loses a few hundred dollars on a warranty claim for every machine sold. Nevermind that that dealer is also on the hook for millions of dollars worth of inventory including parts and machines. They have no idea that a good small dealer might move 10-15 machines a month probably less, smaller dealers are lucky to move 5 machines a month, a decent sized bigger dealer might move 20-25 machines, a really big dealer with a large territory might move 40 a month.

They have no idea that many dealers consider having a shop as a necessary evil and few are actually profit centers. They should be getting rich charging $90 per hour. So what if half of their billable time is doing work for the sales department, or that a shop with a good set of mechanics probably only bills 80% of customer time, or that the dealer foots the bill for sending its mechanics to factory training schools, some that are mandatory in order to be able to get full shop rate on warranty work. Or the thousands of dollars that they are charged for factory tools that might not ever get used, that they never ordered, that are automatically sent to them when a new model comes out. 1.3% ought to be more than enough to cover all of those expenses.

Brian

 

[Digdeep]

Don't confuse them with the facts Digdeep. We all know business owners are evil and rich, preying on their customers and employees. He probably makes a thousand or more of those sales a year, so what if he loses a few hundred dollars on a warranty claim for every machine sold. Nevermind that that dealer is also on the hook for millions of dollars worth of inventory including parts and machines. They have no idea that a good small dealer might move 10-15 machines a month probably less, smaller dealers are lucky to move 5 machines a month, a decent sized bigger dealer might move 20-25 machines, a really big dealer with a large territory might move 40 a month.

They have no idea that many dealers consider having a shop as a necessary evil and few are actually profit centers. They should be getting rich charging $90 per hour. So what if half of their billable time is doing work for the sales department, or that a shop with a good set of mechanics probably only bills 80% of customer time, or that the dealer foots the bill for sending its mechanics to factory training schools, some that are mandatory in order to be able to get full shop rate on warranty work. Or the thousands of dollars that they are charged for factory tools that might not ever get used, that they never ordered, that are automatically sent to them when a new model comes out. 1.3% ought to be more than enough to cover all of those expenses.

Brian

I didn't mention any of that since those details are of no importance ;-)