Do computes and high-end electronics belong in tractors?

[dynasim]

nspec,

Last year, I went to start my tractor. It was cold. The neutral switch sensor had failed(it would not sense neutral). In a big pile of snow, with a delivery waiting, at 5 F, I was crawling around under the tractor trying to find out which sensor had failed. It took me several days to find the issue(mainly because it was so cold that I could be out there for more than 15 minutes at a time.

So, there is an example of being stuck "in the middle of the field" with no indication of what the problem was. If it had been a computer, I would have had to get it hauled to a dealer(and it was in a very inaccessible place).

There have been many reports on this forum of shuttle shift systems(which are computer controlled) failing such that the tractor wouldn't move.

The high performance electronics are important and good for those who utilize their tractors a lot, as they add efficiency. However, for minimal users(<50 hours per year) like me, the fact that they fail spontaneously, not on hours used, but time, makes owning them expensive, and the efficiency gained is minimal.

Chris

 

[whodat526]

to many electronics is a bad thing and that is what they have done to the new tractor since about 94 or 95 is put to many electronics. that is why a tractor built in the 80s that is in good mechanical and cosmetics or good will bring as much or more than a tractor made from 95 to 2006. i have seen it with my own eyes everybody that has to ride these things to make a living in my neck of the woods is starting to hate and these new tractor and have been buying the older ones again that they now will last. example a 2155 jd at auction ealier this month brought 8500 a 5200 jd brought 5000 both 2 wheel drive both same condition

 

[Gator6x4]

nspec,

Last year, I went to start my tractor. It was cold. The neutral switch sensor had failed(it would not sense neutral). In a big pile of snow, with a delivery waiting, at 5 F, I was crawling around under the tractor trying to find out which sensor had failed. It took me several days to find the issue(mainly because it was so cold that I could be out there for more than 15 minutes at a time.

So, there is an example of being stuck "in the middle of the field" with no indication of what the problem was. If it had been a computer, I would have had to get it hauled to a dealer(and it was in a very inaccessible place).

There have been many reports on this forum of shuttle shift systems(which are computer controlled) failing such that the tractor wouldn't move.

The high performance electronics are important and good for those who utilize their tractors a lot, as they add efficiency. However, for minimal users(<50 hours per year) like me, the fact that they fail spontaneously, not on hours used, but time, makes owning them expensive, and the efficiency gained is minimal.

Chris

I personally feel a lot of people think a tractor or motor vehicle should send them a printed certified letter one week in advance of a problem, giving the date, time etc a failue will occur. Also noting that if the person receiving the letter had something else they wanted to do, on the day of the failure the failure would be postponed to a more convenient time. I can well remember having to unload tobacco trailers and carrying the tobaccor from the fied in my youth because a tractor built in 1940's or 1950's would not start. In the summer while in my teens I would plow shrubbery and other plants for a large Nursery with a Farmall tractor, made in the 50's. Many a day I have walked a considerable distance from fields to notify the mechanic the tractor had the audacity to stop on me without notice. A good way to lose a couple days pay back in those days (All teenagers wanted more money) was to leave one of the pieces of equipment setting outside and not under a shelter. The farm manager was of the opinion tractors were not made to act like a duck(rain) or polar bear(snow). I feel if we purchase the tools to work on our tractors and motor vehicles, take care of our equipment place under a shelter, perform the required maintennce and repair minor problems before they become major it will give years of dependable service.

 

[RobertBrown]

I prefer mine without, thank you very much. Electronics that is. Don't need em, don't want em.
If I had 6000 acres in Iowa, planted in corn, I'm sure I'd be singin a different tune. I'd be singing while driving a combine, but that's a tractor.
Electronics are subject to problems I can't solve. So, on a tractor I avoid them.

 

[nspec]

What I was referring to was a problem that shut the tractor down as you were actually operating it - stopped it dead in it's tracks. That is rare and serious when that happens. The failure of a neutral safety swith is probably the most common failure on a tractor today. It usually does not happen while operating. I'm sure I'm wrong, but I thought that most of these failures happen when parked, and when the operator goes to move or start the tractor, he can't. Usually doesn't fail in the middle of a field while the tractor is otherwise running fine. I'm sure I can be proved wrong, however.

This really isn't a computer thing either. It's just a limit switch hooked to a relay or something like that.

Perhaps on these small occasional use tractors, computers have no place. On the bigger machines, I have firsthand witnessed them both increase productivity, and (GASP) actually prevent a failure. They work. Their proven.

Whodat526 tells of tractors since about 94 or 95 having too many electronics. Well, that's a 17 year track record already! I haven't seen the sky fall. I love the older machines and they definitely have their place, but I think their high prices at auctions have to do with a lot more than somebody wanting a non-electronic tractor. Guys have always bought used, older machines because they don't want or aren't able to pay for a new one (amongst other things).

Okay, from all of my pro-electronic posts you all must think I've just totally embraced the new electronic machines. Well, I haven't. I own two tractors which were built in the 40's. I'm absolutely smitten by the late 60's John Deere 4020 - arguably one of the greatest tractors ever made. What about the IH/Farmall 1206? Ford 2000-5000? Ferguson 135? I have serious old tractor fever.

The new stuff has their place, and there are both good ones and bad ones. Example: We have two very similar machines at work. Both were just repowered with brand new engines, brand new electronic controls. Both machines had previously been purely mechanical and completely reliable.

The engines that were used come from 2 of the largest companies in the world - not largest engine companies - LARGEST CORPORATIONS globally. One has been a complete disaster. Does not perform anywhere near what was promised, multiple computer related failures - owner ready to pull them out and tell the manufacturer to come get 'em. Other one hasn't had a single hiccup - not one. We're talking thousands of operating hours a year. The one without problems was more proven. The problem child was the first of it's kind.

 

[looknlearn]

What I was referring to was a problem that shut the tractor down as you were actually operating it - stopped it dead in it's tracks. That is rare and serious when that happens. The failure of a neutral safety swith is probably the most common failure on a tractor today. It usually does not happen while operating. I'm sure I'm wrong, but I thought that most of these failures happen when parked, and when the operator goes to move or start the tractor, he can't. Usually doesn't fail in the middle of a field while the tractor is otherwise running fine. I'm sure I can be proved wrong, however.

This really isn't a computer thing either. It's just a limit switch hooked to a relay or something like that.

Perhaps on these small occasional use tractors, computers have no place. On the bigger machines, I have firsthand witnessed them both increase productivity, and (GASP) actually prevent a failure. They work. Their proven.

Whodat526 tells of tractors since about 94 or 95 having too many electronics. Well, that's a 17 year track record already! I haven't seen the sky fall. I love the older machines and they definitely have their place, but I think their high prices at auctions have to do with a lot more than somebody wanting a non-electronic tractor. Guys have always bought used, older machines because they don't want or aren't able to pay for a new one (amongst other things).

Okay, from all of my pro-electronic posts you all must think I've just totally embraced the new electronic machines. Well, I haven't. I own two tractors which were built in the 40's. I'm absolutely smitten by the late 60's John Deere 4020 - arguably one of the greatest tractors ever made. What about the IH/Farmall 1206? Ford 2000-5000? Ferguson 135? I have serious old tractor fever.

The new stuff has their place, and there are both good ones and bad ones. Example: We have two very similar machines at work. Both were just repowered with brand new engines, brand new electronic controls. Both machines had previously been purely mechanical and completely reliable.

The engines that were used come from 2 of the largest companies in the world - not largest engine companies - LARGEST CORPORATIONS globally. One has been a complete disaster. Does not perform anywhere near what was promised, multiple computer related failures - owner ready to pull them out and tell the manufacturer to come get 'em. Other one hasn't had a single hiccup - not one. We're talking thousands of operating hours a year. The one without problems was more proven. The problem child was the first of it's kind.

Yeah, I guess I see their place but for me most of it is out of my price range and I like to be able to repair it myself which gets harder the more electronics are added to a tractor. ( I don't mind lights and electric start)

I must say that I do enjoy comfort, I just don't like it when it goes wrong and I have to pay the bill because I can't fix it myself.


Although I think a modern tractor with a computer and a gazillion sensors would last longer for a lot of people who have a tractor but don't know how it works. (i.e are forced to put oil in it because it won't start unless the oil level or pressure it right ...)

 

[whodat526]

Whodat526 tells of tractors since about 94 or 95 having too many electronics. Well, that's a 17 year track record already! I haven't seen the sky fall. I love the older machines and they definitely have their place, but I think their high prices at auctions have to do with a lot more than somebody wanting a non-electronic tractor. Guys have always bought used, older machines because they don't want or aren't able to pay for a new one (amongst other things).

what i consider to many electronics is the fuel kill soleniods they should have been left with a manual kill cable for one. i have seen them go out while running and just caused the tractor to die. but all the saftey switches is a good thing expecaily people who is dealing with there first tractor. the electronic shift transmissions dont like there was nothing work with the old 8 by 2 crash box ford trans. but the electronics are here to stay and some are good but there can be to many

as for as auctions prices i buy and sell tractors and there has been more and more people wanting a old tractor so they dont have all the elctronics not because they cant afford a new one. i would rather have a 2755 jd are a 6610 series 2 tractor over any new tractor. And if they buy 20 year old machine for more than they can buy a 10 year old machine what does that mean.

 

[nspec]

I know what you mean. We had a late 60's 4020 Deere back in the day. Had I don't know how many thousand hours. Put a turbo on it in the mid 80's and ran it thousands more. Never had a lick of problem with that powershift transmission!! 8 forward speeds, shift at any speed, any load - waaayyyy ahead of it's time! Awesome machine.

I've seen that 4020 with a turbo and powershift for well north of $15,000 today. Some of it is nostalgia wanting a collectible no doubt, but there are still some **** good older tractors that are still very useful. I think there are 3 or 4 4020's in my town that are used daily.

 

[whodat526]

I've seen that 4020 with a turbo and powershift for well north of $15,000 today.

i know what u mean i seen a 4020 diesel tractor with 158 loader bring 15800 at auction now it was a really nice tractor in great shape and the man that bought it was goin to use not look at

 

[wvpolekat]

These companies are not putting more electronics on there for ***** and giggles. If they actually thought that people preferred a manual cable shutoff or analog gauges, they would certainly put them on there. Especially if it would reduce downtime, costs and increase customer satisfaction.

I think the fact of the matter is that on larger machines in particular, where you have someone spending 10+ hours a day in it, and this person may not care one bit about the well being of the machine, or fuel usage. They are simply doing their job.

Many of these things allow operations like this to increase efficiency, prevent abuse of the machine and monitor what the operator is doing. These are all good things, VERY good things.

They also allow them to use operators with less skill and achieve good results.

Again, when people talk about being able to fix it themselves... How many of you can rebuild an injector pump? Or, even troubleshoot one? It's a straw man argument. You can still do mechanical repairs on these tractors, just like you can on the 50 year old ones. And, just like those, if the fuel system has issues, you likely can't fix it yourself beyond part swapping, just like the electronics. And, either one can leave the machine sitting in the field, unable to move.

The other side is you can learn about the electronics. Buy a shop manual, learn to use a DVOM and get to troubleshooting. They aren't as complex as you think. Sure, it would be great to have the factory software to plug in for diagnostics, but I am sure there is a way to get trouble codes without it.

Finally, as someone else pointed out, plugging in a computer doesn't tell you what is wrong, it simply tells you what input or output is out of specification. It is up to you to figure out why. Rarely is the item mentioned in the code the item that is actually the problem, it is a symptom. Just like on older tractors, if there is black smoke puking out the exhaust, that points you to where you need to start looking, not to exactly what is wrong. You still have to understand what is happening to diagnose it.

 

[Mikeeemo]

The OP was asking about electronics and tractors, somehow cars and trucks came into the mix. As a programmer, I think everything has a place. I love the electronics in my cars and trucks. I get better power and mileage in the same size package.

I have two tractors, a 50 year old MF TO-35 and a 5 year old Kubota L4400.

The only electronics on the Kubota is the operator presence control. Makes good sense, maybe I will be spared if I somehow make it out of the seat.

The rest of the machine is mechanical. I could have purchased a Grand L model and gotten full electronics. For me, it did not make sense, I did not want to deal with or pay for these features.

This question can be answered simply, "it is all in what you want".

I can and do all of the repairs to my machines. The Kubota has not been back to the dealer, ever. I traded electronics for a larger engine and the ability to repair it myself.

I do not think any of us can discount the value of electronics, they have transformed the tractor, made it more productive.

Just seems a little overdone when installed on a small, under 50hp, machine.

This stuff is what makes life good, we can get what we want, then debate it.

Just like we do with Gear vs HST...


LOL, by the way, I'm a gear guy...

Thanks for keeping it light.

 

[whodat526]

1-These companies are not putting more electronics on there for ***** and giggles. If they actually thought that people preferred a manual cable shutoff or analog gauges, they would certainly put them on there. Especially if it would reduce downtime, costs and increase customer satisfaction.


2-Again, when people talk about being able to fix it themselves... How many of you can rebuild an injector pump? Or, even troubleshoot one? It's a straw man argument. You can still do mechanical repairs on these tractors, just like you can on the 50 year old ones. And, just like those, if the fuel system has issues, you likely can't fix it yourself beyond part swapping, just like the electronics. And, either one can leave the machine sitting in the field, unable to move.

3-The other side is you can learn about the electronics. Buy a shop manual, learn to use a DVOM and get to troubleshooting. They aren't as complex as you think. Sure, it would be great to have the factory software to plug in for diagnostics, but I am sure there is a way to get trouble codes without it.

4-Finally, as someone else pointed out, plugging in a computer doesn't tell you what is wrong, it simply tells you what input or output is out of specification. It is up to you to figure out why. Rarely is the item mentioned in the code the item that is actually the problem, it is a symptom. Just like on older tractors, if there is black smoke puking out the exhaust, that points you to where you need to start looking, not to exactly what is wrong. You still have to understand what is happening to diagnose it.

1-first off i like a tractor with a manual kill and lift pump because if the wiring harness it burned up or the fuse box shorted out or the battery dead i can go out there and pull start it and get whatever i was needing to do done
and gauges with numbers not colors i dont care if its in the green blue pink or tan i wont to see how hot it is runing and how much oil pressure

2- i happen to be able to trouble shoot what is wrong with a tractor and have tore down many injections pumps to clean and reseal them i have rebuilt injectors i can rebuilt a motor trans. and diff. have done many of them along with ps pumps water pumps

3-it is quite hard to get the factory software and tools that u need to work on most of the newer stuff i have some tools in my shop from when my dad was a nh dealer for putting a clutch in a tn model tractor which makes it a breeze with out them it can get to be a pain and dont believe what the service manual as wrote in them i have seen them leave whole steps out by acciedent (found this out on a tv140 that would shift and kept doing what the book said and no go called the tech dept. and they fax a nother step that got left out)

4- a computer will tell what is wrong but it wont tell u what cause that part to break but gives u a area of where to start looking because just because u replace the part the com. says is broke i have found will most likely not fix the problem

 

[wvpolekat]

1-first off i like a tractor with a manual kill and lift pump because if the wiring harness it burned up or the fuse box shorted out or the battery dead i can go out there and pull start it and get whatever i was needing to do done
and gauges with numbers not colors i dont care if its in the green blue pink or tan i wont to see how hot it is runing and how much oil pressure

2- i happen to be able to trouble shoot what is wrong with a tractor and have tore down many injections pumps to clean and reseal them i have rebuilt injectors i can rebuilt a motor trans. and diff. have done many of them along with ps pumps water pumps

3-it is quite hard to get the factory software and tools that u need to work on most of the newer stuff i have some tools in my shop from when my dad was a nh dealer for putting a clutch in a tn model tractor which makes it a breeze with out them it can get to be a pain and dont believe what the service manual as wrote in them i have seen them leave whole steps out by acciedent (found this out on a tv140 that would shift and kept doing what the book said and no go called the tech dept. and they fax a nother step that got left out)

4- a computer will tell what is wrong but it wont tell u what cause that part to break but gives u a area of where to start looking because just because u replace the part the com. says is broke i have found will most likely not fix the problem

1- Obviously, you are in the minority because if demand was there, they would do it if they could and still meet emissions requirements. If enough customers wanted analog gauges, I promise you, they would offer them. They want to sell machines, if 90% of customers wanted a pink racing stripe, it would be on the option list. Nothing stopping you from adding whatever analog gauges you would like though.

2- Again, you are in the minority. Most people would rather not take an injection pump apart. At least not if they ever intended to put it back on.

3- Not that hard to get, just takes money. Bad manuals with missing information would hinder you regardless of electronics. Not a good example. That would be like the manual showing you incorrect timing marks or wrong valve clearances.

4- Exact same thing I said.

 

[whodat526]

1- Obviously, you are in the minority because if demand was there, they would do it if they could and still meet emissions requirements. If enough customers wanted analog gauges, I promise you, they would offer them. They want to sell machines, if 90% of customers wanted a pink racing stripe, it would be on the option list. Nothing stopping you from adding whatever analog gauges you would like though.

2- Again, you are in the minority. Most people would rather not take an injection pump apart. At least not if they ever intended to put it back on.

3- Not that hard to get, just takes money. Bad manuals with missing information would hinder you regardless of electronics. Not a good example. That would be like the manual showing you incorrect timing marks or wrong valve clearances.

4- Exact same thing I said.

i wasn't talking about manuals on just electronics on everything and the manual i was talking about was a nh service manual for a tv140 made for the nh dealers

and i wont pink racing stripes and pink neon lights under neath

but yes some stuff is strickly for dealers that way when something breaks u must bring it to the dealer

 

[arsenix2001]

Im a gadget guy, its what sold me on the grand l kubota vs the standard... I like having the electronic control of the hst and the intellipanel is great... Seeing your speed in xx.x mph is great and you can even monitor pto rpm, makes spreading seed and fertilizer alot easier and constant. Heck if i had the money id buy a jd 6xxx premium just to play with the computer. Unlimited posibilities of adjustment. Jd's tmc, on contstruction equipment is facinating, it will even alow you to set a preset bucket lift point so you can load trucks faster.

 

[jake98]

Back before electronics in cars, you could get a 428SCJ in a mustang that would run 14.0 in the quarter and get 8 mpg. Today you can get a 6 cylinder mustang that runs 13.5 in the quarter and gets 30 mpg.

I think electronics might have something to do with it....

Back in the 70's I could run the quarter mile in 56 seconds. Now, with all the electronics I have to check, I can't get out the door in 56 minutes.

When my Kioti's injector pump went, the electronics just sat there dumbfounded while the thing over-reved. Luckily they left one manual safety device, the fuel shut-off.

 

[slowzuki]

I have to say after peering into the hydraulic circuits of a ferguson type 3 point hitch with draft control, I'm glad to see the little bosch computer, 1 double solenoid valve, 1 position sensor, one draft sensor, 2 external lift rams on my MF 5455. It is dead simple to diagnose vs the old system with little springs and orifices all over.

The solenoid valve even has external rubber buttons so if it all goes teats up, you can manually raise or lower the hitch. The one time I had a connector come loose (4000 hours on the tractor), the computer flashed out what sensor was the problem and I had it fixed in an hour.

I must say though, I like my little Kubota 5030 HSTC, only computer is in the dash display, and the tractor can run fine without it. I imagine diagnosing a problem in the hydrostatic transmission is a nightmare of valves etc though vs plug into the computer on my MF.

 

[Ford tractor]

Back in the 70's I could run the quarter mile in 56 seconds. Now, with all the electronics I have to check, I can't get out the door in 56 minutes.

Funny.

I imagine that in the 1930's & 40's they had similar arguments about electric starters vs hand crank. Progress marches on and with it comes higher reliability, performance and yes satisfaction with the product. Not to say that there are not stumbling blocks in the way, just look at late '70's and early '80's GM X-cars!