Do computes and high-end electronics belong in tractors?

dynasim · Jan 25, 2011

nspec,

Last year, I went to start my tractor. It was cold. The neutral switch sensor had failed(it would not sense neutral). In a big pile of snow, with a delivery waiting, at 5 F, I was crawling around under the tractor trying to find out which sensor had failed. It took me several days to find the issue(mainly because it was so cold that I could be out there for more than 15 minutes at a time.

So, there is an example of being stuck "in the middle of the field" with no indication of what the problem was. If it had been a computer, I would have had to get it hauled to a dealer(and it was in a very inaccessible place).

There have been many reports on this forum of shuttle shift systems(which are computer controlled) failing such that the tractor wouldn't move.

The high performance electronics are important and good for those who utilize their tractors a lot, as they add efficiency. However, for minimal users(<50 hours per year) like me, the fact that they fail spontaneously, not on hours used, but time, makes owning them expensive, and the efficiency gained is minimal.

Chris

whodat526 · Jan 25, 2011

to many electronics is a bad thing and that is what they have done to the new tractor since about 94 or 95 is put to many electronics. that is why a tractor built in the 80s that is in good mechanical and cosmetics or good will bring as much or more than a tractor made from 95 to 2006. i have seen it with my own eyes everybody that has to ride these things to make a living in my neck of the woods is starting to hate and these new tractor and have been buying the older ones again that they now will last. example a 2155 jd at auction ealier this month brought 8500 a 5200 jd brought 5000 both 2 wheel drive both same condition

Gator6x4 · Jan 25, 2011

dynasim said:
nspec,

Last year, I went to start my tractor. It was cold. The neutral switch sensor had failed(it would not sense neutral). In a big pile of snow, with a delivery waiting, at 5 F, I was crawling around under the tractor trying to find out which sensor had failed. It took me several days to find the issue(mainly because it was so cold that I could be out there for more than 15 minutes at a time.

So, there is an example of being stuck "in the middle of the field" with no indication of what the problem was. If it had been a computer, I would have had to get it hauled to a dealer(and it was in a very inaccessible place).

There have been many reports on this forum of shuttle shift systems(which are computer controlled) failing such that the tractor wouldn't move.

The high performance electronics are important and good for those who utilize their tractors a lot, as they add efficiency. However, for minimal users(<50 hours per year) like me, the fact that they fail spontaneously, not on hours used, but time, makes owning them expensive, and the efficiency gained is minimal.

Chris

I personally feel a lot of people think a tractor or motor vehicle should send them a printed certified letter one week in advance of a problem, giving the date, time etc a failue will occur. Also noting that if the person receiving the letter had something else they wanted to do, on the day of the failure the failure would be postponed to a more convenient time. I can well remember having to unload tobacco trailers and carrying the tobaccor from the fied in my youth because a tractor built in 1940's or 1950's would not start. In the summer while in my teens I would plow shrubbery and other plants for a large Nursery with a Farmall tractor, made in the 50's. Many a day I have walked a considerable distance from fields to notify the mechanic the tractor had the audacity to stop on me without notice. A good way to lose a couple days pay back in those days (All teenagers wanted more money) was to leave one of the pieces of equipment setting outside and not under a shelter. The farm manager was of the opinion tractors were not made to act like a duck(rain) or polar bear(snow). I feel if we purchase the tools to work on our tractors and motor vehicles, take care of our equipment place under a shelter, perform the required maintennce and repair minor problems before they become major it will give years of dependable service.

RobertBrown · Jan 25, 2011

I prefer mine without, thank you very much. Electronics that is. Don't need em, don't want em.
If I had 6000 acres in Iowa, planted in corn, I'm sure I'd be singin a different tune. I'd be singing while driving a combine, but that's a tractor.
Electronics are subject to problems I can't solve. So, on a tractor I avoid them.

nspec · Jan 25, 2011

What I was referring to was a problem that shut the tractor down as you were actually operating it - stopped it dead in it's tracks. That is rare and serious when that happens. The failure of a neutral safety swith is probably the most common failure on a tractor today. It usually does not happen while operating. I'm sure I'm wrong, but I thought that most of these failures happen when parked, and when the operator goes to move or start the tractor, he can't. Usually doesn't fail in the middle of a field while the tractor is otherwise running fine. I'm sure I can be proved wrong, however.

This really isn't a computer thing either. It's just a limit switch hooked to a relay or something like that.

Perhaps on these small occasional use tractors, computers have no place. On the bigger machines, I have firsthand witnessed them both increase productivity, and (GASP) actually prevent a failure. They work. Their proven.

Whodat526 tells of tractors since about 94 or 95 having too many electronics. Well, that's a 17 year track record already! I haven't seen the sky fall. I love the older machines and they definitely have their place, but I think their high prices at auctions have to do with a lot more than somebody wanting a non-electronic tractor. Guys have always bought used, older machines because they don't want or aren't able to pay for a new one (amongst other things).

Okay, from all of my pro-electronic posts you all must think I've just totally embraced the new electronic machines. Well, I haven't. I own two tractors which were built in the 40's. I'm absolutely smitten by the late 60's John Deere 4020 - arguably one of the greatest tractors ever made. What about the IH/Farmall 1206? Ford 2000-5000? Ferguson 135? I have serious old tractor fever.

The new stuff has their place, and there are both good ones and bad ones. Example: We have two very similar machines at work. Both were just repowered with brand new engines, brand new electronic controls. Both machines had previously been purely mechanical and completely reliable.

The engines that were used come from 2 of the largest companies in the world - not largest engine companies - LARGEST CORPORATIONS globally. One has been a complete disaster. Does not perform anywhere near what was promised, multiple computer related failures - owner ready to pull them out and tell the manufacturer to come get 'em. Other one hasn't had a single hiccup - not one. We're talking thousands of operating hours a year. The one without problems was more proven. The problem child was the first of it's kind.

looknlearn · Jan 25, 2011

nspec said:
What I was referring to was a problem that shut the tractor down as you were actually operating it - stopped it dead in it's tracks. That is rare and serious when that happens. The failure of a neutral safety swith is probably the most common failure on a tractor today. It usually does not happen while operating. I'm sure I'm wrong, but I thought that most of these failures happen when parked, and when the operator goes to move or start the tractor, he can't. Usually doesn't fail in the middle of a field while the tractor is otherwise running fine. I'm sure I can be proved wrong, however.

This really isn't a computer thing either. It's just a limit switch hooked to a relay or something like that.

Perhaps on these small occasional use tractors, computers have no place. On the bigger machines, I have firsthand witnessed them both increase productivity, and (GASP) actually prevent a failure. They work. Their proven.

Whodat526 tells of tractors since about 94 or 95 having too many electronics. Well, that's a 17 year track record already! I haven't seen the sky fall. I love the older machines and they definitely have their place, but I think their high prices at auctions have to do with a lot more than somebody wanting a non-electronic tractor. Guys have always bought used, older machines because they don't want or aren't able to pay for a new one (amongst other things).

Okay, from all of my pro-electronic posts you all must think I've just totally embraced the new electronic machines. Well, I haven't. I own two tractors which were built in the 40's. I'm absolutely smitten by the late 60's John Deere 4020 - arguably one of the greatest tractors ever made. What about the IH/Farmall 1206? Ford 2000-5000? Ferguson 135? I have serious old tractor fever.

The new stuff has their place, and there are both good ones and bad ones. Example: We have two very similar machines at work. Both were just repowered with brand new engines, brand new electronic controls. Both machines had previously been purely mechanical and completely reliable.

The engines that were used come from 2 of the largest companies in the world - not largest engine companies - LARGEST CORPORATIONS globally. One has been a complete disaster. Does not perform anywhere near what was promised, multiple computer related failures - owner ready to pull them out and tell the manufacturer to come get 'em. Other one hasn't had a single hiccup - not one. We're talking thousands of operating hours a year. The one without problems was more proven. The problem child was the first of it's kind.

Yeah, I guess I see their place but for me most of it is out of my price range and I like to be able to repair it myself which gets harder the more electronics are added to a tractor. ( I don't mind lights and electric start)

I must say that I do enjoy comfort, I just don't like it when it goes wrong and I have to pay the bill because I can't fix it myself.

Although I think a modern tractor with a computer and a gazillion sensors would last longer for a lot of people who have a tractor but don't know how it works. (i.e are forced to put oil in it because it won't start unless the oil level or pressure it right ...)

whodat526 · Jan 25, 2011

nspec said:
Whodat526 tells of tractors since about 94 or 95 having too many electronics. Well, that's a 17 year track record already! I haven't seen the sky fall. I love the older machines and they definitely have their place, but I think their high prices at auctions have to do with a lot more than somebody wanting a non-electronic tractor. Guys have always bought used, older machines because they don't want or aren't able to pay for a new one (amongst other things).

what i consider to many electronics is the fuel kill soleniods they should have been left with a manual kill cable for one. i have seen them go out while running and just caused the tractor to die. but all the saftey switches is a good thing expecaily people who is dealing with there first tractor. the electronic shift transmissions dont like there was nothing work with the old 8 by 2 crash box ford trans. but the electronics are here to stay and some are good but there can be to many

as for as auctions prices i buy and sell tractors and there has been more and more people wanting a old tractor so they dont have all the elctronics not because they cant afford a new one. i would rather have a 2755 jd are a 6610 series 2 tractor over any new tractor. And if they buy 20 year old machine for more than they can buy a 10 year old machine what does that mean.

nspec · Jan 25, 2011

I know what you mean. We had a late 60's 4020 Deere back in the day. Had I don't know how many thousand hours. Put a turbo on it in the mid 80's and ran it thousands more. Never had a lick of problem with that powershift transmission!! 8 forward speeds, shift at any speed, any load - waaayyyy ahead of it's time! Awesome machine.

I've seen that 4020 with a turbo and powershift for well north of $15,000 today. Some of it is nostalgia wanting a collectible no doubt, but there are still some **** good older tractors that are still very useful. I think there are 3 or 4 4020's in my town that are used daily.

whodat526 · Jan 25, 2011

nspec said:
I've seen that 4020 with a turbo and powershift for well north of $15,000 today.

i know what u mean i seen a 4020 diesel tractor with 158 loader bring 15800 at auction now it was a really nice tractor in great shape and the man that bought it was goin to use not look at

wvpolekat · Jan 25, 2011

These companies are not putting more electronics on there for ***** and giggles. If they actually thought that people preferred a manual cable shutoff or analog gauges, they would certainly put them on there. Especially if it would reduce downtime, costs and increase customer satisfaction.

I think the fact of the matter is that on larger machines in particular, where you have someone spending 10+ hours a day in it, and this person may not care one bit about the well being of the machine, or fuel usage. They are simply doing their job.

Many of these things allow operations like this to increase efficiency, prevent abuse of the machine and monitor what the operator is doing. These are all good things, VERY good things.

They also allow them to use operators with less skill and achieve good results.

Again, when people talk about being able to fix it themselves... How many of you can rebuild an injector pump? Or, even troubleshoot one? It's a straw man argument. You can still do mechanical repairs on these tractors, just like you can on the 50 year old ones. And, just like those, if the fuel system has issues, you likely can't fix it yourself beyond part swapping, just like the electronics. And, either one can leave the machine sitting in the field, unable to move.

The other side is you can learn about the electronics. Buy a shop manual, learn to use a DVOM and get to troubleshooting. They aren't as complex as you think. Sure, it would be great to have the factory software to plug in for diagnostics, but I am sure there is a way to get trouble codes without it.

Finally, as someone else pointed out, plugging in a computer doesn't tell you what is wrong, it simply tells you what input or output is out of specification. It is up to you to figure out why. Rarely is the item mentioned in the code the item that is actually the problem, it is a symptom. Just like on older tractors, if there is black smoke puking out the exhaust, that points you to where you need to start looking, not to exactly what is wrong. You still have to understand what is happening to diagnose it.