Stick or MIG on thick plate???

[JCC]

I am not trying to start any arguments here just need some advice. I am starting on a project to build a DIY backhoe for my Kubota B7610. Will be welding steel plate up to 1/2" thick.

Since I currently have a cheap HF 110A MIG/flux welder which will not cut it for the thick plate I need to get a new welder.

I know conventional wisdom says use a stick welder for thick plate. But I have never used stick and I worry its going to be difficult for me to weld using a stick. I am getting older and my hands are not as steady as they used to be especially after a couple of beers.

While at Lowes the other day I saw a Lincoln MIG Pro 180 which is claimed can weld 1/2" plate using fluxed wire and multiple passes.

My question is, can the MIG Pro 180 (or any 180A MIG) really weld 1/2" plate? If so how difficult is it to get good penetration, any hints, advice?
Or should I go for a stick like the Lincoln AC225 for half the price? I am very comfortable welding with a MIG, is stick welding much more difficult, does it need a lot more manual dexterity?

What is the general opinion on using MIG for thick plate?

 

[Gary Fowler]

Actually the wire feeder were developed for welding thick sections, not at one pass but they can lay down several pounds of metal per hour more than a stick rod can produce. You need a heavy duty wire feeder to do that. Most of them would be using .045 wire minimum size for large heavy sections. Most of the home rigs arent built for that kind of constant work and .030 or .035 FCAW wire is about all they can handle. You never try to weld thick sections with one pass even with industrial rigs. Your are looking for trouble with non fusion areas, slag entrapment with FCAW and lot of other issues. Keep your passes down to about 3/8" fillets or less depending on your current output. The puddle has to be molten all the time, if it cools before you oscillate back to the sides, then you may cold lap the sides and the weld wont be properly fused. You can do the same with a stick rod also. Never weave the rod more than 3 to 4 max wire diameters. If you go wider, you will likely cold lap or trap slag. Just make lots of small fillet, cleaned properly between passes and you can weld 14" thick material with a 3/32 electrode or even a 110v mig. Just takes time.

 

[Transit]

I think the pro 180 is a bit light for the work. You need something in the range of 250 amps 220-240 volts, Red or Blue.
Being that you have some mig skill that is good, however do expect a big, big jump in performance welding at 200 amps a much greater fluid bead, Spray Arc.
Stick will be much less expensive than mig but you will have an all new learning curve to master.
Mig needs more setup and joint prep. Miller and Lincoln both have good web sites.

 

[Bikewanderer]

I think the pro 180 is a bit light for the work. You need something in the range of 250 amps 220-240 volts, Red or Blue.
Being that you have some mig skill that is good, however do expect a big, big jump in performance welding at 200 amps a much greater fluid bead, Spray Arc.
Stick will be much less expensive than mig but you will have an all new learning curve to master.
Mig needs more setup and joint prep. Miller and Lincoln both have good web sites.

This is exactly right. We run for our portables miller 225's at work and they would be perfect at this.

 

[k0ua]

If you want my thoughts, and they are coming from a relative welding newbie, I would not hesitate to tackle your 1/2 inch with my little PA160 stick rig with some 5/32 6010 or 6011 for the root pass on a properly beveled joint at about 150 amps and follow that with some cap passes of 1/8 7018 at maybe 120 amps and go on. You could buy a nice Miller 252 MIG which is rated for 1/2 inch material for a little over $2000 or you could learn how to run a nice little DC stick rig like my Everlast PA160, or better yet the PA200 for $269. Either one will make a nice weld, the MIG will probably do it prettier and easier. but it is gonna cost you. If I can make a bead with the stick, trust me you can do it. I bet you have a lot more welding experience than I do. Do not fear the stick, it is simple, inexpensive and versatile. and is used every day in construction to weld up very important (people's lives at stake) weldments. Give it a try.
James K0UA

 

[tree grower]

I have been welding for over 30 years, but that doesn't make me a pro. I fabricate many of my own agicultural attachments, because I can't find exactly what I need in the commercial market. If I were to fab a backhoe I would use my stick welder most of the time. It may be all in my head, but in joining heavy steel members, I really like the heat generated by my Lincoln buzz box. 7018 rod is wonderful stuff. For lighter materials, I can't dial the stick low enough to prevent burn-through, so my Hobart MIG is great. As far as learning curve and skills, the stick is much easier to master than the MIG, although either one is vastly different from the other when it comes to touch and fine technique.

 

[USMC.27]

I started out stick welding when I was a kid. I got my first experience at mig welding in my early 20's and had a time trying to get the hang of it. After about 6 or 7 years of mig I bought a new Miller Bobcat and felt like I wasted 3 grand cause I couldn't lay a bead to save my life, at first. I have been using both of them for the past ten years and can switch back and forth with no problems. It is just a matter of getting used to it. I use my mig for lighter stuff and shop welding and my Bobcat for site welding. I would have to agree with the others on the mig, it would be fine for the job, but you really need a larger machine or you will be welding for a long long time! the smaller machines are great for light items and small repair jobs, but they don't have the duty cycle for heavy welding.

 

[Chilly807]

If it were me I'd shop for an AC/DC stick welder, something that will give you 130-140 amps DC. There are lots of good used ones around, mine set me back $160.

Like the guys have said, MIG is a great way to weld, but it's not going to be cheap to get the machine you need for 1/2" plate. Another thought is that if you're welding outdoors, MIG is limited to flux-core wire except on very still days.

I've got a new Miller 180, and an old Sears AC/DC stick. The stick gets used 75% of the time, the MIG has it's uses too. If I were welding up a 'hoe, the stick would finish weld everything the MIG had tacked. The 180 just doesn't have the power to do the job properly in my opinion. If you were building one small piece and didn't mind taking your time, no problem. I consider 3/8 to be about the heaviest material I'll tackle with the Miller 180.

Plan on a few days or even a week of getting some practice with the stick on scrap material. It'll come to you with some practice, it did for me. I hadn't stick welded in 25 years, and I wasn't much good at it then either. Now I don't do pro quality work, but it's not all that bad either.

Sean

 

[wdchyd]

I agree with the AC/DC Stick welder for heavy plate welding....the learning curve will be there but not impossible.....

I use MIG .030 & .045 on average stuff but reserve the stick 7018 for HD strength.....multiple passes are best as mentioned here already......:thumbsup:

 

[Scotty370]

I was a total 'newby', and happened to 'score' a deal (on the net) at Lowe's on a Lincoln Stick Ac/Dc welder (1297) for under 400- dollar delivered to the local store. I will admit that it took be a couple months to get up the nerve to 'strike' an arc! At 63, I don't have the best hand-eye coordination that I did, but it's a dream machine! I was so 'hung' up on "What happens if the rod gets 'stuck', etc. But if I can do it anyone can. I use 'Drug-Store readers' under the hood and brace my hand together, but found 'stick', to be all the tool I'll ever need. My son does have a 175 Lincoln Mig for 'light stuff, which is awesome, but I liked what I bought! No regrets. ~Scotty

 

[zman007007]

JCC, did the welder you look at, look like this? I bought this one about 1 1/2 years ago, from Lowes. I have been very impressed with how it welds. I am experienced in welding, so I know a bit about welding. not everything but some. In my 30 some years of welding I have tig welded, stick and migged. I had never tho had the chance to flux core wire weld. I was very impressed with it. It came with the gauges and hose to hook to the 75/25, ie. argon tank, but after welding with it outside I decided I don't need it. I was welding 1/4" to 3/8" metal on the settings shown in the pics and did great. I did have to make more than one pass, but what the heck, I wasn"t trying to make production on anything. I was using .030 wire and tips on this. I think with the .045 tip and wire it recommends for 1/2" steel it would do fine. Just would have to do several passes. zman

 

[crazyal]

I guess it comes down to how much you are willing to spend. Clearly a DC stick welder is much cheaper than a powerful mig but unlike a stick 99% of the time I can lay down a great weld with my Lincoln 255 welder. Because I use gas laying down multiple passes is painless. I can't tell you how well a 180 would work since mine is a bigger industrial unit though.

If you do go the stick welder route play with it some before trying to do something like a backhoe. The last thing you'll want to do is lay down some poor welds that you'll either be grinding out or could crack when in use and cause other problems.

 

[JCC]

Thanks everyone for your replies, you have helped me zero in on what I need terms of specs and the pros and cons of MIG vs stick.

Well I did some more research and decided to buy a Hobart Handler 210 MIG welder. Its rated up to 210A and 3/8" welds with one pass. That is a little short of 250A which is ideal for 1/2". If I bevel the plates, use a root gap and maybe pre-heat with multiple passes I think it should be fine.

Speed is not super important to me since I am not doing this for a living. What is more important is that I am comfortable doing the welding which I will be with MIG. Maybe I am being a big chicken but the stick welding kind of scares me. If all else fails I have a friend in PA with a Lincoln buzz box which I can use, but I am trying to avoid the learning curve.

And I found a deal for the welder only $700, that is just $30 more that the Lincoln MIG Pro 180 at Lowes. Now I am off trying to sell my current welder and some other stuff to pay for the new welder.

 

[u2cme21999]

I would try a ASAB 250amp,you can weld sheet metal all the way up to 1 inch plate--I have even welded 2 inch thick blocks on an over head crane boom,and never had one break off,it is a great all around mig,perfect for 1/2 inch plate

 

[Transit]

Something no one has addressed, how will you be cutting the stock?

 

[kjung17]

You are right on with the root gap (no wider than your filler rod/wire) and bevel (35 degrees or so). Stick or wire doesn't matter. Multiple passes. Clean between passes. With that method, you can weld any thickness. Preheat unnecessary on 1/2". If you mess it up, grind it out. It's hard to ruin metal. Good luck.

 

[Gary Fowler]

The root gap not wider than filler metal only works for stick rod. You wont get full penetration with a mig with .030 or .045 gap. you need a minimum of 1/8" to get the penetration you need. We use 3/16 gap for tacking on larger pipe which sucks down to about 5/32 after it is all tacked up. Run it downhill and keep the wire feed pointed into the puddle. Takes some practice to keep the wire from porcupining inside but once you get the hang of it, it makes a nice weld. I know most of you think if it burns thru it is bad.

 

[JCC]

Something no one has addressed, how will you be cutting the stock?

I have that covered, I have a Milwaukee, 6370-20 metal cutting circular saw, will cut 1/2" plate like cutting through 2x4 wood. Amazing saw.

 

[kjung17]

I have that covered, I have a Milwaukee, 6370-20 metal cutting circular saw, will cut 1/2" plate like cutting through 2x4 wood. Amazing saw.

Wow. Nice saw.

 

[Ford tractor]

I would have either gone for a 250 amp class mig or a much (MUCH!) cheaper AC/DC stick welder. The learning curve for stick welding isn't very steep if you have already taught yourself what a good looking mig weld looks like.