The De-industrialization of America

[mmurphy]

Great! Good luck!

Now the bottom line question: Are we Americans, as shoppers, ready to drive past "Always Low Prices" WalMart and pay a little more for something made here in the U.S. than we are for the Chinese junk?

Ken

Ken, I am always willing to pay more for American Made, if you can find it. I think as a union member you will find that pride more because they have a stake involved. I make retailers mad at me when I tell them I do not want there products that are made in China.

There really should be no reason are product should be much higher then China made stuff anyway. It take a fraction of the people to make American made products then in China.

 

[scgargoyle]

Actually, there are a number of reasons that we can't be competitive with China. One, their labor is ridiculously cheap. And if you think they're still sitting in the dirt carving stuff out with a nail, you've got a lot to learn. They have mastered mass production (we taught them how) and have the latest and greatest equipment, largely due to government subsidies. I know a guy who worked as an engineer in China for 3 months, and he was blown away by the state-of-the-art equipment they have. A second big factor is that they aren't playing by the same set of rules we are. OSHA? EPA? Not a chance. The government there is pro-business, unlike some other countries. Of course, safety takes a huge beating. Thirdly, their materials are cheaper, either because the government subsidizes them, or because their laws make them cheaper to produce. We found that we could buy finished plastic products cheaper per pound than we could buy the raw materials here in the US. That includes the shipping!

Our company survives in a small niche market. We run short runs that the Chinese aren't interested in. We run medical and military products that the customers don't trust to foreign companies. And we run products for the handful of entrepreneurs who cling to the 'Made In America' mantra. We've cut all of our costs to the bone; if the economy was better, I'm sure a lot of our production workers would jump ship for greener pastures. Pay and benefits are lousy.

Our only hope is that as quality of life declines here, and improves in China, the trade deficit will even out. Meanwhile, the knowledge of how to manufacture is fading away. People like me are aging and retiring, and the younger generations are growing up without this knowledge. By the time things even out, China will have such an upper hand, we will just be one of a number of failed empires. Hopefully, the transition will be peaceful.

I'll finish with a story from American history. At the beginning of WWII, the Japanese ruled the Pacific Ocean with a fleet of new ships. We had an aged fleet of ships, mostly from WWI. In a remarkably short time, we caught and surpassed the Japanese fleet, WHILE fighting in Europe! How? All of the factories were turned over to war production. Detroit made military vehicles instead of cars. Even small shops joined in the effort. Years ago, it was common to see War Board brass labels on machines from that era. If another country, say China, for instance, decided to take over the world, who would stop them? You can't mount a huge effort like the one in WWII if the factories and the knowledge to run them doesn't exist.

 

[Ken45101]

I'll finish with a story from American history. At the beginning of WWII, the Japanese ruled the Pacific Ocean with a fleet of new ships. We had an aged fleet of ships, mostly from WWI. In a remarkably short time, we caught and surpassed the Japanese fleet, WHILE fighting in Europe! How? All of the factories were turned over to war production. Detroit made military vehicles instead of cars. Even small shops joined in the effort. Years ago, it was common to see War Board brass labels on machines from that era. If another country, say China, for instance, decided to take over the world, who would stop them? You can't mount a huge effort like the one in WWII if the factories and the knowledge to run them doesn't exist.

Good point, thanks for sharing.

Ken

 

[MichKubota]

Wow, A lot of subject matter here to cover.

Let me start with loss of privacy. I thought this country took privacy seriously.

Examples -
1. For the cops to come into your house they needed a search warrant.
2. To record telephone conversation, you need to tell the party being recorded that they are being recorded. Without that you need a court order to "tap" there lines?

These were laws that we passed as the times changed to "protect invasion of privacy without reason".

Times have changed again but it seems no new laws have been enacted. We simple should not be tracked or recorded without our consent unless a independent court decides there is reason to do so.

Laws were created to protect us while we are in a phone call. Why haven't we laws protecting the information passed on the internet?

Another change that has potential to rob us of our privacy are Radio Frequency Identification Devices "RFID". These are tiny electronic devices placed into everything we buy. They replace the UPC code and make it easier for retailers to scan items purchased. In theory you can have an entire shopping cart full of merchandise and as you move to the register, it reads all the RFID devices in cart without having to remove them from cart.

However; many of these devices remain in the merchandise forever. So when you walk in a store you are unknowing scanned. They can tell the coat on your back to the underwear (or lack of:laughing you are wearing.

Changes are inevitable. Why has the United States not created new laws to protect our privacy. This country is all about "Freedom". Without privacy there really is no "Freedom".

 

[sweettractors]

I'm usually in the 'gloom-n-doom' corner when it comes to this, but there are some glimmers of hope out there. I work for a manufacturer (plastic molding), and we picked up about 20% this year. Our goal for 2011 is to increase business another 30%. We're considered a small company; 65 employees. The owner just went to a big meeting with Electrolux, who is looking to place a lot of work in the US. It seems they had a big operation in Juarez, Mexico. So many employees are being KILLED in drug and gang-related violence that they are pulling out. We regularly talk to potential customers who want their product made in the US.

I am usually "Gloom and Doom" also, however, last years sales for us were up around 10 percent year over year and this year we are up 25% over last year. We have hired 1 more employee. So things may be beginning to turn around. Ken Sweet

 

[Reverend Blair]

Ken, I am always willing to pay more for American Made, if you can find it. I think as a union member you will find that pride more because they have a stake involved. I make retailers mad at me when I tell them I do not want there products that are made in China.

There really should be no reason are product should be much higher then China made stuff anyway. It take a fraction of the people to make American made products then in China.

I kind of have a hierarchy when buying.
1. Buy local.
2. If you can't buy local, buy regional.
3. If you can't buy regional, buy Canadian. (in the case of most here, American)
4. If you can't buy Canadian, buy North American.
5. If you've exhausted all other options, buy international.
6. Repeat steps 1-5 for your choice of retailer/supplier.

I've been called protectionist and anti-trade for that, but I'd rather see my neighbour with a job than save a buck.

 

[mmurphy]

I kind of have a hierarchy when buying.
1. Buy local.
2. If you can't buy local, buy regional.
3. If you can't buy regional, buy Canadian. (in the case of most here, American)
4. If you can't buy Canadian, buy North American.
5. If you've exhausted all other options, buy international.
6. Repeat steps 1-5 for your choice of retailer/supplier.

I've been called protectionist and anti-trade for that, but I'd rather see my neighbour with a job than save a buck.

:thumbsup::thumbsup: I wish everyone had that way of thinking. Does anyone suppose when we have the 3rd world status, China will be feeding us poor??? Hahaha, I doubt it!

Asian countries from what I understand shun at buying anything from the west.

 

[Willl]

In a nut shell,,,,

I'd rather see my neighbor with a job than save a buck

 

[ultrarunner]

Wow, A lot of subject matter here to cover.

Let me start with loss of privacy. I thought this country took privacy seriously.

Examples -
1. For the cops to come into your house they needed a search warrant.
2. To record telephone conversation, you need to tell the party being recorded that they are being recorded. Without that you need a court order to "tap" there lines?

These were laws that we passed as the times changed to "protect invasion of privacy without reason".

Times have changed again but it seems no new laws have been enacted. We simple should not be tracked or recorded without our consent unless a independent court decides there is reason to do so.

Laws were created to protect us while we are in a phone call. Why haven't we laws protecting the information passed on the internet?

Another change that has potential to rob us of our privacy are Radio Frequency Identification Devices "RFID". These are tiny electronic devices placed into everything we buy. They replace the UPC code and make it easier for retailers to scan items purchased. In theory you can have an entire shopping cart full of merchandise and as you move to the register, it reads all the RFID devices in cart without having to remove them from cart.

However; many of these devices remain in the merchandise forever. So when you walk in a store you are unknowing scanned. They can tell the coat on your back to the underwear (or lack of:laughing you are wearing.

Changes are inevitable. Why has the United States not created new laws to protect our privacy. This country is all about "Freedom". Without privacy there really is no "Freedom".

I worked in a Tool and Die shop the first 18 months after graduation... most of the guys I worked with were near retirement. We still had major customers... 20 years later all of the customers no longer exist or no longer manufacture in the SF Bay Area.

The few remaining machine shops closed and much of the equipment was being sold for scrap prices... just no way a home owner could buy a lathe the size of his garage or a mill that required a ladder to make adjustments.

Apple, HP and others had major manufacturing operations in the Bay Area... no more.

We stored some equipment for the military strategic reserve... that all changed with the Bay Area Base closings.

We have become a throw-away society...

I was able to make the jump to medical and it has kept me working for the last 19 years... lots of changes there also... almost every employee benefit is gone with the shift to contract workers.

My job twice was on the chopping block and then someone figured out they really need someone knowledgeable and available 24-7...

We no longer look at things long term... year end financials are now the horizon.

 

[David s Von Gieserbrechta]

As far as losing jobs to Asia let me say that I find it beyond insane when there is a GOOD labor force on home ground. It makes no sense at all unless the intent was the destruction of an entire nation.

I owned a heavy castings pattern shop for over 35 years, you name the agricultural equipment manufacture and i probably worked for them at one time or another, Flexi Coil , Bourgault, Shulte, Buhler Farm King, Versatile, Canadian tool and Die, Degelman, and many, many more plus the major oil pump jack companies like Le grand, L.S.I , Concord, and Universal and I can tell you this, that no matter what any of these companies might say about business being good, the best indicator is to look at the foundries that make the castings, and when these foundries are canceling Xmas banquets and going on work sharing, things are not looking good. That is just what is happening now. When the orders aren't there someones not selling and their not selling because someones not buying.

Farmers are still putting iron in the dirt but it ain't new iron.

Twelve years ago I saw the writing on the wall and packed up the shop and retired, business was still pretty good but the inevitable crash was just around the corner. Now I just sit on my acreage and wait for the sh*it to really hit the fan. It's gonna be bad but it will be an interesting show.

As for blame, blame anyone you want but the message was there long ago, sadly the majority of people chose not to read that message. It is very sad.