Sure Guard Universal Hydraulic Fluid?

[OrangeRidge]

I love this "oil discussion" stuff
Hydro-pump oil is about "what it is" and sooooooo many
punters can't see beyond the $ signs ..............
For small , high speed pump drives , the viscosity is very
important .
UTTO ( like UDT ) is 20w , SUDT is 10w/20 , JDHYGard is 10w/30.
EVERY man and his dog makes/sells UTTO , and that's why there
are a hundred and one brands . This is however not what should
be put in a high-speed pump . This is why JD have a lower cold-start
10w/30 ; just because of the 2000 range hydro-pump situation.
Get the correct viscosity . SUDT or JD . 20w is too viscous and
will slow the engine rev. rate too. If you're **** bent on cost , the
JD is cheaper ..............

P.S. I use JD because I can't get SUDT here ; no complaints with it whatsoever !

 

[swampvol]

Punters?

 

[bp fick]

Punters?

Slang. OZ for "one who pays", ie customer. Also, one who bets or wagers.

Was that close? :laughing:

 

[OrangeRidge]

Spot on ! I've got to be careful with my terminology on US
forums ; upset a few folk on LRRForum over the years

 

[eepete]

Orange Ridge, are you using the regular or low viscosity HyGuard ?

Pete

 

[IslandTractor]

AFAIK, Kubota contracts oil companies, yes, Ashland in the US, but others in Canada and elsewhere, to make the fluid to Kubota's specs. That is not quite re-branding. Sort of tailor made. Canada has only Premium udt.

No, Kubota isn't an oil company, thus the contracts to their specs.

IslandTractor, I see you are a Kioti owner and as far as I know, Kioti doesn't do the tailored fluid contract thing.

I don't have experience with the larger Kubota tractors and their fussiness one way or the other, regarding fluid. I do have experience with the BX and a B series I now own. I can absolutely tell you that SUDT makes the BX work better, quieter and more predictable. No, I don't think there is fairy dust in SUDT, but it is a very, very low viscosity fluid. It has an additive package that is likely unique. That combination simply isn't readily available elsewhere with generic fluids. When I tried an "over the counter" fluid, it was immediately noticeable and it wasn't good. Foaming, jerkiness, increased whine among other things. I know that is merely testimonial evidence, but it sure showed me something, and I am no Kool Aid drinker.

Also, it isn't 4 times as much either. TSC premium is $29 a gallon and SUDT is $39 a gallon at my dealer, with my customer discount. That is higher, but nowhere near even twice as expensive. FWIW.

I can understand that the BX and smaller Kubotas might do better with low viscocity hydraulic oil such as SUDT. However, that is not the only source of low viscosity oil that contains antifoam agents etc. Just a very quick google search turns up quite a few local "manufacturers" who do exactly what Kubota does i.e. contract with a bigger oil company to produce in bulk a product formulation that the smaller company will then repackage and market. For example, a family owned oil company in Ohio, Akron Hydraulic, in business for over 80 years, sells a 10W hydraulic oil with anti foam, anti corrosion additives and they charge $44 for a 5 Gallon pail. That is about four times less expensive than Kubota's SUDT. Unless there is some very expensive fairy dust added to the Kubota product, what you guys are paying for is marketing and Kubota profits.

 

[OrangeRidge]

Orange Ridge, are you using the regular or low viscosity HyGuard ?

Pete

Over here , it's formulated as one product only and marketed as
a 10w/30 JDHYGuard oil. All the Kubby owners around my neck
of the woods are using this rather than the UDT/UTTO20w.
Our Kubbies arrive fluid drained , and are filled with 20w at
the Dealers; immediately drained for JD by purchasers who
know otherwise ! There's quite a difference in sound/response.

 

[David_Kb7uns]

Without a detailed analysis of the Super UDT and all its additive package, you guys are just guessing as to who comes the closest to the Kubota formula.
I am sure SUDT has been an evolution and tweaked over the years as Kubota has been on the leading edge of HST technolgy and has even published some papers on it. As other have said there are other fluids that are close but they do not give that much cost savings. All I know is if I use Super UDT in the Kubotas tha I have I have optimal performance and there will not be a warranty issue from Kubota. Not sure why people are always trying to cut corners on the fluid and especially on the charge pump filter. If you went to the hospital and they were out of your blood type and they were going to give you another and the nurse said it was just as good what would you do??

I am not sure what my dealer put in my L3130GST for the first fill but after putting in Super UDT it did shift quicker and was not hesitating to complete the shift.

David Kb7uns

 

[OrangeRidge]

They probably filled it with cheap 20w . These guys can really
annoy you at times. It's fraud , really ..............

 

[funwithahoe]

I don't know that answer, but it sure is an interesting question because sure enough....some of us do spend the extra for the Kubota-branded product.

So I'll try to answer it. The reasoning revolves around the tractor manufacturer being larger, more capable, and more technically knowledgeable about their mechanical product than the custom-blending oil companies. And of course Kubota has the largest stake in the actual performance of the oil. Being larger means they have they can - and hopefully do - hire more and better design engineers and have the facilities to actually test the oil in use in the machine. Having a larger stake means they shold have the motivation to do that testing and then make changes where they see an advantage.... Who else can do that?
rScotty

I agree - Thank you.

 

[eepete]

OrangeRidge, tnx for the reply.

When my Kubota dealer serviced my B21 after it's 1st 50 hours, he put in "plain old" UDT. He said that the SUDT didn't really make a difference with the warm winters we have here in North Carolina. Owners manual recommends SUDT and advises to consult your local Kubota dealer for further details. This is a '97 B21, so warranty not an issue. The tractor is kept in an insulated garage, so even in winter it will be started at a temperature somewhere above 45 degrees.

My Deere dealer sells 95% regular JD Hy-Guard, 5% low viscosity Hy-Guard. I put regular Hy-Guard in my JD 4520, low vis in the 318 since it gets used to remove snow when we get it, but might be changing everything over to Hy-Guard come spring.

I found somewhere on the net the viscosity numbers (the "cSt") ratings for UDT, Hy-Guard, Super UDT, and low vis Hy-Guard. The UDT and Hy-Guard are within 1.5% the same stuff (viscosity wise). The properties for SUDT are a bit wider as a multi-weight oil, but in general it's a bit thinner than UDT. There is no Deere equivalent to SUDT.

So in the interest of having fluids that are common to my equipment, I'm going to change out the B21 to the Hy-Guard. If this is wrong, then my Kubota dealer is wrong and so is every tractor they service. Deere and Kubota are great companies and I'm sure they have all the additives needed in their transmission oil.

If I lived north of the Mason-Dixon (more or less) I'd use the SUDT due to the colder winters.

Not trying to start an argument here, just putting my out loud thinking and dealer experience on the table. I've enjoyed this thread because it's time to change out my B21 oil.

Pete

 

[OrangeRidge]

It doesn't help with choices when some of this proprietary
fluid is blended differently for different countries ..........

 

[bp fick]

It doesn't help with choices when some of this proprietary
fluid is blended differently for different countries ..........

Feel your pain. You Aussies design and can buy the newest generation Ford Ranger, complete with diesel engine. All we get is a 25 year old gasser model.

Stuff like this happens in the corporate world.

 

[OrangeRidge]

My LR3 is gas . Ford's big problem is their terrible European diesel
engines , which cause no end of problems and expense for those
who choose them for LR3/RRS/Defender , Mondeo , Transit Van ............
I've always said that the States don't know just how lucky
they are , not to have these Ford European 4 and 6 cylinder engines.
If you want a diesel , buy Audi (1st) or other German Marques ....

 

[apnorcal]

A dealers exuberance about selling one product over another is often proportional to the extra markup they make on that product. Below is an excerpt from the article linked at: http://www.pqiamerica.com/THF Reprint.pdf

The THFs in question are priced
well below that of legitimate products and they
list the specifications farmers are looking to
see. Furthermore, THF packaging often
uses colors that farmers associate with onspec
products. But in the words of one
jobber, “It’s a disgrace to the industry, and
if marketers refuse to play the price game by
offering the yellow bucket fluid they are
boxed out of a significant volume of
business.”
Apparently jobbers are not the only
ones being tempted to take a bite out of the
apple by playing the price game. Hussain
notes that a number of OEM dealers are
even selling this low cost-low quality juice in
an effort to meet the needs of their price
sensitive customers. And it’s a tough battle
to convince farmers the fluid doesn’t meet
specifications and could cost them much
more in the long run when the dealers
themselves are selling it.
So can a low price-low quality THF
really cost more in the long run? Well,
according to Deere, Lubrizol, and others
when asked if it would hurt a tractor to use
fluid that doesn’t meet JDM-20A or JDM-
20C specifications, the answer is a
definitive “Yes.” Lower treat rates on the
antiwear could result in damage to the
spiral gear in the final drive. It could also
cause excessive wear in the planetaries.
Lower treat rates on the friction modifier
could result in improper and poor shifting.
It could also cause improper operation of
the wet brakes. The bottom line, in the
words of Winslow: “Its use could bring the
tractor to an early demise.” Deere agrees.

 

[johnrex62]

Profit is a powerful incentive. You remind me of a story my brother told me about when he was working in an electronics store while in college.

He had a young woman come in to buy her boyfriend a stereo. She was not familiar with electronics and asked my brothers opinion of the units for sale. He went through the list of features comparing and contrasting the different units. None was signficantly better or worse than each other, all of the units had some feature another did not, but nothing that stood out beyond preference for decision making.

She asked which he would pick if he was buying it. He pointed out the unit of his choice and she asked what feature made the decision for him. He responded that that unit had the highest PBS value. She bought it.

The PBS was the stores method of determining the commission payout to the salesperson.