Sure Guard Universal Hydraulic Fluid?

[swampvol]

Went to the local kubota dealer to get the filters and fluids for the hydraulic change and the guy at the counter (who has been there forever) talked me into buying Sure Guard instead of the Kubota oil. Nearly 1/2 the price of the Kubota udt, and he said they use and sell a lot of it. So, I said wth.

I googled the name and nothing comes up other than its manufactured by Dunlap Oil. Now I'm having second thoughts about using the stuff.

Anybody here have any info or even heard of the stuff?

 

[IslandTractor]

There are quite a few regional brands of hydraulic fluid. My impression is that they are fine based on what local backhoe owners tell me.

 

[bp fick]

http://www.smittysinc.net/images/MSDS-SUR/SUR-PremUniversalTractorFluidMSDS.pdf

 

[swampvol]

http://www.smittysinc.net/images/MSDS-SUR/SUR-PremUniversalTractorFluidMSDS.pdf

Would you feel comfortable putting something from Smitty's Supply into your tractor?

I dunno. I'm sure the stuff is just as good as Kubota udt, right?

 

[blueriver]

Would you feel comfortable putting something from Smitty's Supply into your tractor?

I dunno. I'm sure the stuff is just as good as Kubota udt, right?

Well I would think if they selling it and they are using it ... it should be okay.

 

[bp fick]

Would you feel comfortable putting something from Smitty's Supply into your tractor?

I dunno. I'm sure the stuff is just as good as Kubota udt, right?

Personally? No. I am hoping the rumors about Kubota coming out with a synthetic sudt are true. That is what I'd put in mine. Your mileage may vary, as always.

 

[IslandTractor]

Personally? No. I am hoping the rumors about Kubota coming out with a synthetic sudt are true. That is what I'd put in mine. Your mileage may vary, as always.

Why would you spend four times as much for something with a Kubota name tag when you know Kubota is not an oil company and is just rebranding the product? Has Kubota provided any data to suggest longer life of tractors using the premium or super premium products? Is there a demonstrable performance improvement with confirmatory data from Kubota?

 

[bp fick]

Why would you spend four times as much for something with a Kubota name tag when you know Kubota is not an oil company and is just rebranding the product? Has Kubota provided any data to suggest longer life of tractors using the premium or super premium products? Is there a demonstrable performance improvement with confirmatory data from Kubota?

What we ever have to talk about if some of us didn't use SUDT!!!

 

[IslandTractor]

What we ever have to talk about if some of us didn't use SUDT!!!

I'm just waiting for Kubota to put out SUDT toilet paper at $5 a roll!:laughing:

 

[rScotty]

Why would you spend four times as much for something with a Kubota name tag when you know Kubota is not an oil company and is just rebranding the product? Has Kubota provided any data to suggest longer life of tractors using the premium or super premium products? Is there a demonstrable performance improvement with confirmatory data from Kubota?

I don't know that answer, but it sure is an interesting question because sure enough....some of us do spend the extra for the Kubota-branded product.

So I'll try to answer it. The reasoning revolves around the tractor manufacturer being larger, more capable, and more technically knowledgeable about their mechanical product than the custom-blending oil companies. And of course Kubota has the largest stake in the actual performance of the oil. Being larger means they have they can - and hopefully do - hire more and better design engineers and have the facilities to actually test the oil in use in the machine. Having a larger stake means they shold have the motivation to do that testing and then make changes where they see an advantage.... Who else can do that?
rScotty

 

[IslandTractor]

I don't know that answer, but it sure is an interesting question because sure enough....some of us do spend the extra for the Kubota-branded product.

So I'll try to answer it. The reasoning revolves around the tractor manufacturer being larger, more capable, and more technically knowledgeable about their mechanical product than the custom-blending oil companies. And of course Kubota has the largest stake in the actual performance of the oil.......
rScotty

Valid points. On the other hand, Kubota probably knows less about oil than tractors and we are talking about a mature oil product which many companies have learned to formulate properly. An analogy might be something like beer. There are indeed premium brands but any brewery can produce a safe standard can of beer that will quench your thirst just as well. In the case of oil products we have known for years that the small independent gasoline dealerships simply buy product from the big high tech oil companies and rebrand it. Gotta believe they do the same with lubricants. They add various additives but those too are purchased from common suppliers like Dupont etc.

I don't doubt that Kubota does due diligence in selecting oil products before putting it's name on them but It remains to be seen whether this is just a profit center for them or a product that truly justifies a significant premium. The fact that Kubota dealers often use other bulk products leads me to see the Kubota branded stuff as more marketing hype than anything else. Why don't they publish their data showing enhanced performance or longer hydraulic pump life if they really have done that type of work?

 

[SpudHauler]

I agree with rScotty. And you don't hear anything from the UDT/SUDT users about oil issues. This oil is the blood of the HST system.

 

[IslandTractor]

I agree with rScotty. And you don't hear anything from the UDT/SUDT users about oil issues. This oil is the blood of the HST system.

How much do uou hear about oil issues from non UDT/SUDT users?

 

[rScotty]

Valid points. On the other hand, Kubota probably knows less about oil than tractors and we are talking about a mature oil product which many companies have learned to formulate properly. An analogy might be something like beer. There are indeed premium brands but any brewery can produce a safe standard can of beer that will quench your thirst just as well. In the case of oil products we have known for years that the small independent gasoline dealerships simply buy product from the big high tech oil companies and rebrand it. Gotta believe they do the same with lubricants. They add various additives but those too are purchased from common suppliers like Dupont etc.

I don't doubt that Kubota does due diligence in selecting oil products before putting it's name on them but It remains to be seen whether this is just a profit center for them or a product that truly justifies a significant premium. The fact that Kubota dealers often use other bulk products leads me to see the Kubota branded stuff as more marketing hype than anything else. Why don't they publish their data showing enhanced performance or longer hydraulic pump life if they really have done that type of work?

OK...I see your point. And I sure wish I had a better way to argue against it. In fact, I have heard that Kubota has published some data and that your Kubota dealer has access to it on their internal website. I've even seen parts of graphs derived from the study and from the little I saw it does looks like the UDT/SUDT specs are both real and advantageous.

Then something weird will happen like what just happened this morning. I just found out that Kubota recommends your choice of UDT, SUDT, and 80/90 gear oil for my front drive axle!! These have such different characteristics that I admit my faith in Kubota's knowledge about oils and lubrication is a bit shaken. In fact, more than shaken. I may just go back to the good old SAE ratings and tests and begin all over again from there. After all, those SAE, MIL, MT, and GL ratings are based on very rigorous US testing....none better.

Here's and idea: If you or someone can get hold of the published data through Kubota - not just the final UDT/SUDT graphs from their sales reports, but the real details of their testing - then we can get down to figuring this thing out. We know the studies exist.
rScotty

 

[swampvol]

Ok...now I'm a bit pissed.

I decided to go ahead and use the stuff and I just noticed the 5 gallon pail they gave me says 'Super-S' hydraulic fluid, and the two 1 gallon containers are SureGuard! WTH???:mur:

 

[art]

I'm not going to get into the posts with poor information and yes I am a retailer so you can divide this for yourself.

I've seen a lot of oil failures in my mechanical days. I like them, as I once told someone you can tell a lot lot from a piece of metal. The quality, if it has it for the job will always be there. If not then look at the failure!

First thing I noticed was it's pour point, it won't work here in central NY!!!! The bad part of it that sheet doesn't tell me all I want to know as far as the properties of the oil that might help or hinder the life of a tractor. I have found out the oil does make a difference in the workable life of the machine.

For many people today machines are considered disposable. Cars are swapped at 30,000miles, chain saws for some wood cutters are swapped at 36 months of some makes. Tractors, skid steers and other machines are at other variable times. The first owner might be able to get by with nearly any fluid and doubling the manufacturers recommended intervals.

Big question might be whats left for the second owner?

I'd lay odds on it that the dealer decided he'd push it so he could make money! Dealer margins are lousy on high turn over goods oil included!

This is because of the low grade price points compared to what a knowledgeable manufacturer would recomend for the equipment they sell.

Many do care about longevity of the product they are building far more so then a small no-name oil company might!

We have all read about the noises and issues of a cheaper hydraulic fluid being used in a hydro!!!

 

[IslandTractor]

We have all read about the noises and issues of a cheaper hydraulic fluid being used in a hydro!!!

OK, that is your opinion but what about data? Most of this local brand hydraulic fluid ends up in commercial machines, not in poorly maintained suburban lawnmowers etc. Most commercial owners have good incentives to keep machinery running properly for thousands of hours and typically their machines do last for 4-5 thousand hours. What is going into all the Case, Deere and other backhoes? Certainly not Kubota UDT/SUDT.

Let's not confuse poorly maintained engines and hydros that fail for lack of maintenance or adequate oil levels with true lubricant quality failures. As noted before, almost all of the lubricants are originally sourced from big oil companies which remarkably is where Kubota gets theirs unless they have their own refinery somewhere.

 

[swampvol]

Not sure about the sudt, but I remember reading that their udt is made by Valvoline.

 

[dex3361]

OK, that is your opinion but what about data? Most of this local brand hydraulic fluid ends up in commercial machines, not in poorly maintained suburban lawnmowers etc. Most commercial owners have good incentives to keep machinery running properly for thousands of hours and typically their machines do last for 4-5 thousand hours. What is going into all the Case, Deere and other backhoes? Certainly not Kubota UDT/SUDT.

Let's not confuse poorly maintained engines and hydros that fail for lack of maintenance or adequate oil levels with true lubricant quality failures. As noted before, almost all of the lubricants are originally sourced from big oil companies which remarkably is where Kubota gets theirs unless they have their own refinery somewhere.

Ashland oil handles the SUDT for Kubota at least the MSDS says that.

 

[bp fick]

AFAIK, Kubota contracts oil companies, yes, Ashland in the US, but others in Canada and elsewhere, to make the fluid to Kubota's specs. That is not quite re-branding. Sort of tailor made. Canada has only Premium udt.

No, Kubota isn't an oil company, thus the contracts to their specs.

IslandTractor, I see you are a Kioti owner and as far as I know, Kioti doesn't do the tailored fluid contract thing.

I don't have experience with the larger Kubota tractors and their fussiness one way or the other, regarding fluid. I do have experience with the BX and a B series I now own. I can absolutely tell you that SUDT makes the BX work better, quieter and more predictable. No, I don't think there is fairy dust in SUDT, but it is a very, very low viscosity fluid. It has an additive package that is likely unique. That combination simply isn't readily available elsewhere with generic fluids. When I tried an "over the counter" fluid, it was immediately noticeable and it wasn't good. Foaming, jerkiness, increased whine among other things. I know that is merely testimonial evidence, but it sure showed me something, and I am no Kool Aid drinker.

Also, it isn't 4 times as much either. TSC premium is $29 a gallon and SUDT is $39 a gallon at my dealer, with my customer discount. That is higher, but nowhere near even twice as expensive. FWIW.