It looks like I may have been test driving the wrong vehicles

[Lt CHEG]

After buying the backhoe attachment for my tractor my uncle brought the whole trailer, tractor and backhoe by the scales at a local gravel bank. Let's just say that although I'm sure my 5.3L Silverado 1500 would have pulled the load, there's no way that I was willing to overload the truck and rear axle by about 3,000 pounds.

So I started looking at used 3/4 ton crew cabs from both Ford and GM. Originally I had test driven new 1 ton SRW Fords and found them okay, but the ride was still a little harsh for my liking, so I decided to give the 3/4 tons a try. Honestly the 3/4 ton Chevy and GMC trucks seem to provide the closest ride quality to my current half ton, but the Ford 3/4 ton is actually VERY close. So I've been looking for approximately 2006 to 2007 vintage used diesels for the last week and a half or so. (Thanks by the way to Diamondpilot for some offline assistance with my search).

Fast forward to last night. I got an electronic birthday card from my Chevy dealer yesterday so I figured that I'd give them a call and see if they had anything that might work for me. Long story short, they had a sweet 2007 Old body style non DPF Silverado diesel in stock with roughly 60,000 miles so I decided to take it for a test drive. I liked the truck and so did the wife, but the numbers weren't working exactly where I wanted them so I decided to wait.

Right next door to my Chevy dealer is a Ford dealer. On a whim I sent an email to their internet sales dept. about a couple of used F250's and also a new one, just for grins. It turns out that I used to work with the internet sales manager's son as a police officer with a local PD so I really got the VIP treatment. I decided to test drive a brand new 2010 F250 diesel Supercab XLT. I liked it very much and found driving it to be the most like driving my current truck. We worked the numbers (priced under invoice and X Plan for the matter) and the rebates on top of that. My cost and payments for a new F250 were going to be about the same as the used Chevy. So now it looks like I very well may end up driving a new 2010 F250 Power Stroke. The truck is on hold for me until Thursday and I have to decide if I can live without the crew cab. If so there is no question I'll be switching to the Ford. I rarely carry a passenger besides my wife and if so it's usually only one, so they can sprawl out across the whole back seat and have pretty good comfort. Usually my back seat gets filled with myself and one other person's snowmobile gear and two people ride up front if I've got a passenger as most of my miles come from towing my snowmobile rig to the good snow.

I just figured I'd share my experience with everyone and if I buy the truck I'll be sure to post pictures. The truck is an XLT with the Chromed nerf bars already installed, snow plow prep package, 9,800 pound GVWR, auxiliary heat unit for fast heat in the winter, cab marker lights and a bed liner. The only thing it doesn't have that I'll miss is the power seat and fog lights. I figure I'll just add the fog lights myself, and the lack of a power seat may actually be a blessing because it's easier to get it to exactly the right spot when someone else drives the truck and moves my seat. So what does everyone think?

 

[Diamondpilot]

Keep us posted. Glad I could help... Nice to see you found one with the heavier GVWR package.

Chris

 

[TMR]

Sounds like you are on the right track.

Slightly off topic question...I have "heard" that the only difference between 250 and 350 (Ford or Chevy) is one additional leaf spring...is that accurate or what other differences are there?

I am looking to move to an HD Crew Cab and might go to the 350/3500 just to get the extra towing flexibility...Thanks...Tom R

 

[Lt CHEG]

I know that the F350 SRW really does offer some nice benefits over the F250, but since this is my only truck and my wife and I could perceive a difference in ride quality we've got to stick with the 3/4 ton. I'm thinking that the 9,800 pound GVWR should be able to handle just about anything that we would throw at it. Generally speaking the heaviest thing that I'd put in the back would be an ATV or snowmobile so I'm not as worried about payload as towing capacity. You'll be happy to know though Chris that I decided to keep looking after seeing an otherwise nice 2005 F250 crew cab that only had an 8,800 pound GVWR. You definitely conviced me that a heavier GVWR is the way to go.

As far as the difference between the F250 and F350, I really don't know if a leaf is the only difference or not. However I could perceive a difference in ride smoothness over potholes and what not with the F250 vs. the F350 SRW so I know there's got to be something.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I have a 04 F-250 Diesel 4x4 and a 06 F-350 Diesel 4x4 Single Rear Wheel (SRW). I can not tell the difference in ride. The F-250 has the 10,000# GVWR package and the F-350 has the 11,500# GVWR. The only build change from the 04 to the 06 is that the 04 used a leaf spring front end while the 05's and later got a coil over front suspension. Maybe that makes up the difference.

So to answer your question, yes, the springs are really the only difference. Depending on model you get larger wheels. The real advantage is you gain payload capacity of as much as 1,500# Watch the GVWR of the truck. Remember, this also determines how it can handle a 5th wheel/GN or a bumper pull trailers tongue weight.

In the case of the 05 Lt Cheg spoke of with a low 8,800# GVWR the truck itself weighs 7,500# on average with a diesel and 4x4. Now put 2 in the cab and you are close to 8,000# rolling down the road. Legally you could only put 800# in the bed while the truck he is looking at with the 9,800# GVWR allows a true 3/4 ton plus at 1,800#

Chris

 

[TMR]

So to answer your question, yes, the springs are really the only difference. Depending on model you get larger wheels. The real advantage is you gain payload capacity of as much as 1,500# Watch the GVWR of the truck. Remember, this also determines how it can handle a 5th wheel/GN or a bumper pull trailers tongue weight. Chris

If I move up to an HD version of the Crew Cab my thoughts are that the potential difference in ride would be offset by the increase in trailering flexibility. My needs are uncertain and may change...but once I move to 250 category I will likely go to the 350...never know how BIG a tractor (Or 5th wheel) I may get in the future Thanks...Tom R

 

[Diamondpilot]

If I move up to an HD version of the Crew Cab my thoughts are that the potential difference in ride would be offset by the increase in trailering flexibility. My needs are uncertain and may change...but once I move to 250 category I will likely go to the 350...never know how BIG a tractor (Or 5th wheel) I may get in the future Thanks...Tom R

Thats what happend to me. Bought the F-250 when we had a 10,000# load to haul. 1 year later got a 16,000# or so load to haul and the F-250 simply did not have enough suspension. I did not want to air bag it so I got a 05 Damx 3500 SRW 4x4. I did not know enough at the time and it only had a 9,900# GVWR, actually less than the F-250 I already had.

I figured a 1 ton would be stronger than a 3/4 ton but it handled the weight no better than the F-250. I started doing research and ordered the heavies 1 ton SRW truck I could find which was the 06 F-350 I still have with the 11,500 GVWR. Its night a day difference what it will handle.

The 16,000# load would settle the F-250 and 3500 Dmax a good 8". The F-350 maybe 3". Steering, braking, and overall handling is much better with a load.

Chris

 

[TMR]

It's usually not that simple. There can be many changes, and most aren't visible. Examples are: heavier front and rear axles including ring and pinion sizes, heavier springs and higher spring rates, tires maybe, brakes, variations in the same model transmission, axle ratio selections and frame section modulus. It's rarely a case of simply slipping in an extra leaf and a different badge.

Thanks for the reply K7LN...that is info I am seeking.

Question...are you certain your examples apply to current models of F 250/F350 and the GM 2500/3500??

I have had multiple sales staff tell me the extra leaf is only difference between 250/350 and 2500/3500. They do say that there are significant differences...such as you mention...between 150/250 and 1500/2500 but claim not (Other than the extra leaf spring) between 250/350 and 2500/3500.

Thanks...hope to clarify this...Tom R

P.S. Ya I know...don't believe sales person TMR

 

[jayste]

Thanks for the reply K7LN...that is info I am seeking.

Question...are you certain your examples apply to current models of F 250/F350 and the GM 2500/3500??

I have had multiple sales staff tell me the extra leaf is only difference between 250/350 and 2500/3500. They do say that there are significant differences...such as you mention...between 150/250 and 1500/2500 but claim not (Other than the extra leaf spring) between 250/350 and 2500/3500.

Thanks...hope to clarify this...Tom R

P.S. Ya I know...don't believe sales person TMR

Sales folks! You're right, don't trust 'em. My guess on the comment that there's little difference in 250 and 350 is that they probably have more 250's on the lot and less 350's (SRW). More to choose from in the 250's means better chance at a deal. All this, of course, would apply to 2500's and 3500's as well.

 

[Diamondpilot]

As far as I can tell comparing my 04 F-250 and my 06 F-350 SRW is there is spring, shock, wheels and tires are bigger, and brake components that are different. I can see nothing different in the axles and frames. Both have 3.73 gears so that may have something to do with it.

Simple fact is if you go to Fords site and build two identical trucks the F-350 SRW will only cost about $600 more than the identical F-250. There is no way you could upgrade a F-250 to be as stout as a SRW F-350 for that money.

Its a no brainier to me to skip the F-250 and get the SRW F-350 but that is just me. I have had 2 3/4 ton trucks and have learned my lesson. They just do not have the payload to match the power of the Diesel engine.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Are your two trucks really the same as to axles and frames? You didn't mention cab style which would be an obvious difference. But what are the dimensions on the frame? Could it be that one is .050" thicker? How about the height and width of the beam? Not likely, but different alloy? Now take that axle. Because they are both the same ratio, doesn't mean they are the same. Could one be a Dana and the other be a Sterling? And about those leaf springs. Same thickness (3/8" vs 7/16") and length? The naked eye won't always identify the differences.

As to the no contest between F-250 and F-350 choice, I agree 100%!

Good point. Both trucks are 4x4 diesels and they both are the same extended cabs with short beds.

Chris

 

[LBrown59]

As far as the difference between the F250 and F350, I really don't know if a leaf is the only difference or not. However I could perceive a difference in ride smoothness over potholes and what not with the F250 vs. the F350 SRW so I know there's got to be something.

Go with the one 1 0ne Ton :
It's well worth the very small difference.

 

[medicshawn]

The only suggestion I have is inquire a little bit about the tire pressure monitoring system. We have a 2011 gas f-350 superduty cab and chasiss at work. They apparently had the system start alarming when the weather got cold. There was a 10-15 minute procedure that sounded pretty involved for resetting and recalibrating the sensors.

You might want to also check out the operation of the 4X4 shift lever. We have a manual shift lever and it wasn't super easy to get it in the proper gear. The shift knob is also just stuck on the lever and that came off.

Otherwise it seems like a nice truck but it only has 500 miles on it.

 

[Lt CHEG]

Go with the one 1 0ne Ton :
It's well worth the very small difference.

I agree that as far as work capability the 1 ton single rear wheel trucks are probably the best value going. However, both my wife and I could perceive a difference in the quality of the ride between the 3/4 ton and 1 ton, and my wife wanted the better ride so that's why we're probably going to stick to a 3/4 ton. Ideally what I need is a car that has 4 wheel drive and can tow 12,500 pounds as ride quality is very important to my wife and I. Since there isn't a car that can tow 12,500 pounds a 3/4 ton truck is the best compromise for me. I do appreciate all the input and advice but a 1 ton is not an option for me right now. I've even tried talking her into keeping my half ton and me picking up an older 1 ton, and she vetoed that as we really don't have the space for a third vehicle right now. Believe me, when I was looking at 1 tons my wife was not at all enthused about them, but now after test driving the 3/4 tons she's actually enthusiastic about me getting a 3/4 ton. I realize that a 1 ton would be better for hauling, but since this isn't just a hauler for me I've got to go with the best overall package and for me that's a 3/4 ton right now and for the foreseeable future.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Not to try to sway you toward a SRW 1 ton but have you drive a 2010 F-350 SRW and compared it to the 2010 F-250 you test drove?

I just wonder what the actual difference is???

Chris

 

[Lt CHEG]

Not to try to sway you toward a SRW 1 ton but have you drive a 2010 F-350 SRW and compared it to the 2010 F-250 you test drove?

I just wonder what the actual difference is???

Chris

The first truck that I actually test drove was a 2010 F350 Crew Cab XLT. I'll admit that the difference wasn't great but it was noticeable. It was even more noticeable to my wife. I really don't deny for a second that the F350 would be a more capable truck for pulling, hauling, etc. and it would certainly be a great value. However the F250 offers the best compromise for us based on only being able to have 2 vehicles of our own (I also have a take home car from work). As as aside my wife also preferred the ride of the 2008 and newer Fords to the 1999 through 2007 style Super Duties due to the 6.4 liter being quieter than the 6.0 liter.

Chris, I greatly appreciate your help with all of this and I know that you're not trying to sway me in a different direction. I actually made sure to concentrate on the higher GVWR packages on the F250 largely based upon your recommendations. For all I know in some areas the difference may very well be imperceptible. However, in this area the roads are so riddled with potholes that the difference in ride quality between the F250 and F350 is perceptible. Plus with a $9 billion budget deficit next year, it's not likely that we'll be seeing a whole bunch of new paving projects any time soon unfortunately.

 

[Dmace]

A new truck is always a good thing! :thumbsup:

Personally, I feel the new Powerstroke is still too new to be trusted or deemed reliable especially with their track record lately but you may get lucky...

 

[Diamondpilot]

Sounds like the 3/4 ton is for you then. I just wanted to make sure you did not make the $45,000 mistake like I did.

Everyone has different needs and circumstances so get what fits you.

One last thing. Make sure the truck you are getting is the later version build. They upped the HP and TQ slightly.

Chris

 

[Lt CHEG]

Sounds like the 3/4 ton is for you then. I just wanted to make sure you did not make the $45,000 mistake like I did.

Everyone has different needs and circumstances so get what fits you.

One last thing. Make sure the truck you are getting is the later version build. They upped the HP and TQ slightly.

Chris

Believe me, I appreciate it. I've also thought a lot about what "could be" etc. and I really think I've come to the best compromise. We're in no position to be buying any more land any time soon and even if we did my tractor is already oversized for what we really need and could easily manage twice the land that we have currently. I'm not much of a boat person (sorry, I know that's a big hobby of yours) and neither is my wife. The biggest boat I could ever see myself owning would be a row boat or a canoe. My wife doesn't like camping (we tried) so I don't have to worry about accommodating a slide in camper or pulling a huge camper. So since I won't be hauling a bigger tractor, already have the heaviest implement for it that I would ever have use for, would never be adding a slide in camper and would not be towing a boat of any size larger than even a small car could handle I really think that I've covered all the bases with this truck. The largest trailer besides my equipment trailer that I could ever see towing would be a toy hauler for a couple of ATV's or snowmobiles and the F250 would be able to handle anything I'd be looking at in that department. Also our land has natural gas which we will be using for heat, and we don't have much in the line of trees on the land so I don't see myself hauling anything of any real substance in the bed, besides my ATV or maybe a sled. Since the F250 would be able to tow the equipment trailer and any toy hauler that I might ever want just fine, I really think I've got my bases covered.

Now if I ever got into trolling around on the water with one of those beauties like yours Chris , I could see the need for a bigger truck. However with my hobbies decidedly more land based (except for scuba diving) and my wife's general fear of water I don't see any of our pleasure activities leading us in the direction of upsizing. The only real fear I have is that I will really miss my crew cab. That is however balanced by my lack of children, the extremely few passengers I've ever had in my truck and also the desire to keep the truck somewhat compact (since I can't get a super short box on a F250 or 350 a crew cab pickup would be over a foot longer than an extended cab) I'm really leaning towards signing the papers on the new truck tomorrow. Heck, worst case scenario since I'm buying the truck for about $500 below invoice, combined with $6000 in additional rebates I should be in no worse shape in 2 years than I am with my current truck. Since I should have plenty of equity in the new truck if I have to upgrade something in 2 or 3 years it won't be the end of the world. I really can't forsee circumstances changing though, at least not if I wish to remain HAPPILY married. I'll definitely keep you updated.

 

[Lt CHEG]

A new truck is always a good thing! :thumbsup:

Personally, I feel the new Powerstroke is still too new to be trusted or deemed reliable especially with their track record lately but you may get lucky...

The truck I'm looking at is a 2010 leftover with the 6.4 liter International Powerstroke. I'm not looking at 2011's as frankly the deals aren't there to support doing so. From what I've read the 6.4's are thirsty but they have been doing pretty well for the most part. First thing I will be doing after the warranty though is removing the DPF and all other extra emissions crap to bring the fuel economy to where it should be though. The nice thing about the older DPF engines is the ability to remove them, I'm thinking that the newer urea injection engine owners are probably stuck with all that stuff forever.