Oil & Fuel Pour in fuel injector Cleaner

[jonyyuma]

Okay, What is the major difference in the fuel injector cleaners, that are poured into the fuel? I have bought two differnent types before, Gasoline powered and diesel fuel type. I have never paid anyone to take them out and clean them on any engines. I did pay once to have the nozzels on my truck replaced and re-calibrated, with out noticable difference in performance or smoking?.{6.2 Chevy}.Jy

 

[leonz]

Okay, What is the major difference in the fuel injector cleaners, that are poured into the fuel? I have bought two differnent types before, Gasoline powered and diesel fuel type. I have never paid anyone to take them out and clean them on any engines. I did pay once to have the nozzels on my truck replaced and re-calibrated, with out noticable difference in performance or smoking?.{6.2 Chevy}.Jy

They are solvents with lubricants, You do not need them for your Kubota as
it does not have standard injectors by using injection nozzles with out any restriction other than the individual nozzle inside diameter.

A worn nozzle affects the engine performance signifigantly.

A good fuel stabilizer like sea foam (which I use) helps more than anything.

 

[Skyco]

They are solvents with lubricants, You do not need them for your Kubota as
it does not have injectors using injection nozzles with out any restriction other than the nozzle inside diameter.

A good fuel stabilizer like sea foam (which I use) helps more than anything.

Please explain what you mean that Kubotas don't have any restriction other than nozzle inside diameter.
They do have the common injector "pop off" assembly. On my BX 24 it is set for 2000 PSI using a shim/adjusting washer. The holdoff pressure is supposed to be 1850 PSI for 10 seconds. The WSM also advises checking the spray pattern..so maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying.


Personally I won't use SeaFoam in a diesel- it is mostly isopropyl alcohol which many diesel manufacturers say not to use alcohols...:2cents:

 

[leonz]

Indirect injection diesel engines do not have injectors or restrictions.

fuel flow is controlled and metered by the indirect injection pump at each cylinders

fuel lobe in the injection pump; any unburned fuel is pushed back into the fuel rail when the piston

reaches T.D.C. , the inlet valve for fuel and air closes and the remaining fuel

is pushed back into the fuel rail and back to tank with the return line.



You could not have an indirect injection diesel engine otherwise as the indirect fuel

delivery system is passive in delivery after the injection pumps delivery of the metered fuel.



Unless something has drastically changed in 33 years.

 

[Skyco]

Ok so indirect injection diesels don't have injectors The thing that injects the fuel isn't an injector- we'll call it a nozzle, or squirter, or sprayer but not an injector

Not sure what any of that has to do with fuel system/injector/squirter cleaners..
As for jonyyuma's question as to the difference between cleaners- if you are gonna use them definitely get one for diesels...PowerService DieselKleen is one of many that has a following here, there are lots of others. Some never use them and claim good results.

 

[leonz]

The condition of the fuel entering the injection pump after filtration has everything to do with it as any water or dirt below the filtration rating will pass through to the engines combustion chamber and not burn-explode completely in a diesels case.

If the fitration is 2 Micron and water is separated the fuel pumps and nozzles will last much much longer.



Even a freshly dropped load of diesel fuel will have water in it unfortunately; and thats the main reason I suggest the Racor cyclone spinner units to filter the diesel fuel and remove the water the first time everytime.

 

[nspec]

Leonz, you're not entirely correct. Indirect diesels most certainly have injectors. The fuel to a direct injected engine is pressurized in a 'common rail' at a very high pressure. Each injector is told when to fire directly into the cylinder either electronically, or in some cases, it is electronically controlled but hydraulically actuated (caterpillar). There are also usually multiple injection events per stroke. In other words, a small pilot injection to get the fire started, followed by a large injection to get the power, followed by another smaller injection to let the fire go out slowly...all in milliseconds. This is why the new common rail engines are so smooth and quiet and do not have that diesel rattle.

An indirectly injected engine has a mechanically driven lift pump (jerk pump) which feeds injectors via individual fuel lines. Each injector is timed (usually mechanically) and fires into a precombustion chamber above the actual cylinder.

There's a lot more to it than this crude summary, but both indirect and direct injection diesels have injectors.

 

[leonz]

Leonz, you're not entirely correct. Indirect diesels most certainly have injectors.


the duetz engines most certainly do not, they have nozzles








The fuel to a direct injected engine is pressurized in a 'common rail' at a very high pressure.


yes.




Each injector is told when to fire directly into the cylinder either electronically, or in some cases, it is electronically controlled but hydraulically actuated (caterpillar).


The Bosch and Nippondenzo are strictly mechanical.




There are also usually multiple injection events per stroke.



If that happened the engine would stop



The firing order determines firing sequences with the fuel delivered to the specific cylinder in one burst with the injection pump which in the Duetz and Kubota engines are lined up with the injection pump to properly feed fule at the right time to the correct cylinder


In other words, a small pilot injection to get the fire started, followed by a large injection to get the power, followed by another smaller injection to let the fire go out slowly...all in milliseconds. This is why the new common rail engines are so smooth and quiet and do not have that diesel rattle.


the engines are recieving the proper amount of fule for firing versus what is happening to the BX models and others to secure the EPA blessings



An indirectly injected engine has a mechanically driven lift pump (jerk pump) which feeds injectors via individual fuel lines.


yes the diaphram pump is common on the Duetz and others



Each injector is timed (usually mechanically)


Via the springs and stops in the fuel side of the injection pump.

No precombustion chamber in the Duetz motors; The pistons have a 3 leaf clover in the larger air cooled engines and the smaller ones.

and fires into a precombustion chamber above the actual cylinder.


The diesel would never work as the fuel is compressed to the point that the metered amount of fuel is compressed to the point the limited volume of fuel physically explodes at the molecular level and a precombustion chamber would never work on a diesel anyway for the above reason.



There's a lot more to it than this crude summary, but both indirect and direct injection diesels have injectors.

No the indirect injection diesels have nozzles.

If standard diesel injectors were used for indirect injection diesels the fuel system would lock up and blow up because a diesel injector onlhy allows fuel to enter one way and no excess fuel to be pumped back to the return line fuel rail.

 

[nspec]

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Perhaps our terminology is where we are comming to heads. Do all direct injected engines use a high pressure 'common rail'? It is very common knowledge (can be found on more than a few manufacturer's web sites) that common rail engines fire with up to 5 ignition events per stroke, per cylinder. This is why the new diesels are so ridiculously smooth and quiet. Go stand next to a brand new Dodge pickup and you'll see what I mean immediately. That's not the muffler making it so quiet. They indeed have injectors. They are not the same design as the old mechanical unit injectors, however. They are controlled by piezoelectrics and can fire at extremely high pressures regardless of the speed of the engine. High pressure in the fuel system without the common rail used to be dependent on engine rpm's. Common rail systems can be pressurized to upwards of 26,000 psi!

Furthermore, direct injected engines fire fuel directly into the cylinder, usually into a crown on the top of the piston. Indirect injected engines commonly had a precombustion chamber above the actual cylinder. This served to swirl the intake air and improve combustion. You can say that's not true, but I'm not making this up. Just a little legwork and you can readily find this information.

I think a lot of the confusion lies in the lingo. I do not believe that the Deutz and Kubota direct injected engines are using a common rail injection system. They simply do away with the precombustion chambers and fire into the cylinder. They have apparently increased their efficiency to the point where they are able to do this.

Perhaps there are a couple of exceptions, but most diesel engine manufactures using a direct injected common rail fuel injection system, both refer to 'injectors', and stock 'injectors' in their parts inventories - I've bought them. Again, I'm not making this up. A very nominal amount of research will uncover all of this information quite easily.

 

[Skyco]

I think terminology is the sticking point here....

leonz says IDI's have nozzles, sure they do and so do the DI injectors in my 7.3L Powerstroke. To me if it is injecting fuel into a diesel combustion area it is an injector. Thats what it is doing injecting

And yes the newer electronically fired injectors can and do fire multiple times in one cycle.

Again if the OP wants to clean his fuel system and injectors/nozzles, the yes a number of products are available to do that. And commonly the diesel and gasoline versions are different..

 

[nspec]

I apologize if this thread has been hijacked with a discussion about injection terminology. Getting back to the original discussion about fuel system cleaning...

I have to second Leonz advice about the Racor. Clean, water free fuel is of the utmost importance. There is always water in some amount, however small that may be, in diesel fuel. It can come from a variety of sources. My belief is that condensate is the chief culprit. Can form at the storage tank at the refinery, in the barge when it is being shipped, or even at your home storage tank or in the tractor itself. Water in diesel is where algae forms. In addition, cool water droplets sprayed through a hot injector tip at the engine can seriously damage injectors.

One last point on the injectors just to relate how terminology can cause confusions. There was some talk about how the Deutz's don't have injectors on their indirect injected engines.... My company runs (6) V-16 Deutz's - the model number is a TBD 620. They are indirectly fired and have a mechanically driven bosch lift pump. The pump supplies fuel to the rack which is timed mechanically and feeds mechanical injectors. I could take a picture of the injector for you if you would like - they are very conventional looking, albeit very large.

We have had some issues of late with diesel fuel dilluting the lube oil in the engine. There has been a lot of discussion about whether the injectors are leaking or whether the injection pump is allowing it's lubricating oil to seep into the fuel system. Either way, quality of fuel comes into play and with the new blends, a good Racor is very cheap insurance.

 

[eepete]

So I looked up some Racor filter systems. Web search lead me to the Mid Atlantic Engine Supply site. Was looking at their spin on series for off road use. It had a clear bowl at the bottom. The filters were available in 2, 10, and 30 micron.

The fuel filter on my JD 4520 is a 5 micron filter. Is there some other benifit to the Racor system that the "stock" JD filter doesn't provide? Don't know, just asking

Pete

 

[leonz]

So I looked up some Racor filter systems. Web search lead me to the Mid Atlantic Engine Supply site. Was looking at their spin on series for off road use. It had a clear bowl at the bottom. The filters were available in 2, 10, and 30 micron.

The fuel filter on my JD 4520 is a 5 micron filter. Is there some other benifit to the Racor system that the "stock" JD filter doesn't provide? Don't know, just asking

Pete

The Racor 1100 model and others can be ordered with a fuel heater that is controlled by an automatic thermostat and heat the fuel prior to its entering the injection pump.

The stationary centrifuge spins the fuel and water and crap against the bowl walls using the pressure gradient created by the injection pumps suction and removes the water quickly as the water has a lower specific gravity and settles out quickly.

The 2 micron filter element will protect your fuel system and engine to a much greater degree and the engine will burn cleaner as well.


The use a of Racor fitration systrem at the dispensing tank will also accomplish this for you and remove the contaminants prior to dispensing the fuel for you so its essentially a protection vaue judgement where the filter unit mounted on the machine will protect it at all times and a Racor system mounted at the dispensing point will clear the fuel at the time of refueling,

You would be truly amazed by the amount of crap and water is removed by a Racor filtration system including weld spatter, algae solids, simple dirt and dust etc.

 

[nspec]

The Racors are water seperating fuel filters. The water settles out in the bowl at the bottom and can be drained off. This is accomplished by directing the fuel through a spiral type pathway similar to what a centrifuge would accomplish. The water and some solids are 'spun off' and travel to the outside of the filter housing then settling to the bottom. More than likely, the JD filter is simply a filter element. The racors have this cartridge filter above the bowl as well. Difference is that while the cartridge filter may trap water, once it does, it's all done. AND, you have no visual indication that it has. The Racors offer the advantage of both being able to see the water, and allowing you to drain it off, keeping water out of the filter element. This way the cartridge can keep on filtering sediment.

We usually run two filters. A primary filter of 10 or 15 microns and a secondary of 2 microns.

 

[jonyyuma]

Yes, I have used a Racor Turbine filter for years, it did not have a heater, but to see the stuff that filter captured. The water would form at the bottom and it had a valve to drain it out, without losing prime. Unfortunately there is not enough room on my Kubota for this racor unit..I have always bought the injector cleaner that was made for the system,gas or diesel. But I was curious about the composition of it. I also know dirty injectors will plug up or pee...which really makes a knock on start-up..Thx. Jy

 

[leonz]

Can you run an 1100 on the ROPS and still be out of the way?

 

[eepete]

thanks to all for the replies and explanations :thumbsup:.

My Kubota B21 has a clear fuel filter but no drain. It is clearly just a fuel filter. My JD 4520 has a water drain under the fuel filter. On some JDs it is clear, on mine it is not. The canister for the filter is labeled "Final Filter Water Separator" and at the bottom it says "Drain Water Regularly". The tech manual refers to this as the "water separator" also. No explanation in the manual as to how it works other than pointing out that you should drain water off via the drain valve periodically.

In a good-better-best world, my B21 is good, my 4520 is better, and a Racor filter would be best ??

A retrofit on the JD 4520 tractor would be difficult. But if I ever did a fuel storage tank and dispenser, it's clear that a Racor filter system would be a must!

Pete

 

[leonz]

If you have room on the nose of that thing and it does not have a loader you can mount the racor 1100 or other model there using the four mounting holes on the filter canister or your rops as long as you can run fuel line the number 4 hydraulic hose is perfect for this application.

 

[PoorMansCat]

Okay, What is the major difference in the fuel injector cleaners, that are poured into the fuel? I have bought two differnent types before, Gasoline powered and diesel fuel type. I have never paid anyone to take them out and clean them on any engines. I did pay once to have the nozzels on my truck replaced and re-calibrated, with out noticable difference in performance or smoking?.{6.2 Chevy}.Jy

You should and use a diesel fuel specific additive. Do not use anything that has acetone as an ingredient.
There have been several studies done on fuel additives, and some of the results are suprising.
Best Brand of Diesel Fuel Conditioner - Page 2 - Dodge Diesel - Diesel Truck Resource Forums
hope this link works..
Personally, I run KNOWN good clean fuel, and every great once awhile, I will add a small amount of Caterpillar fuel conditioner.

 

[tdm008]

Hi can anyone tell me how to clean and what to clean fuel injectors for a case 885 diesel tractor (?1989 or so) thanks Tina
email: tinamehta007@gmail.com