water treatment advice

[PaulieD]

Our Adirondack home is blessed with a great water supply (sustained 10+ gal/minute flow and no bacteria problems), but suffers from hard water and high total dissolved solids. Recently a friend introduced me to a Kinetco rep at a social outing and I decided to send the rep a sample of water and have him propose a solution.

The results of his water test determined that we have low iron, low oxidized iron and low manganese, but that we have very high levels of hardness and total dissolved solids (15 gpg hardness and 1285 ppm total dissolved solids). These numnbers were consistent with tests we had performed at an independent lab several years ago.

The proposed solution is a Kinetico 2030S water softener and a K-5 reverse osmosis unit. The total installed cost for the entire package is $4900. After doing a search and review of old threads, and doing some google research, it appears that the proposed solution is reasonable and appropriate, and that Kitetico makes a reputable product, but the $5K price tag is a little bit difficult for me to swallow.

I have no practical experience with water softening, just what I've gleaned from some internet research; and I was wondering if any of you might be able to advise me of options and/or share your perception of the kenetico proposal.

Thanks,

Paul

 

[anojones]

I'm no expert, but we do have a Kinetico water softener. It's overpriced but works well and doesn't use much salt- our installer/service guy is good, but you can't fix the thing yourself- no parts etc. There might be better/cheaper options for a DIY type situation.

 

[Craig Clayton]

If you have some spare time you could split the plumbing in your house. Toilets and bath tubs on regular water and smaller under sink units for drinking. Softened water contains salt and Dr OZ has told use to reduce our salt intake.
Craig Clayton

 

[beppington]

... is a little bit difficult for me to swallow.

Pun intended?

Anyway, WOW, that's expensive water!

My experience with water softeners is this: I had well water that had severe iron & hard water deposits. My "tighty whities" were "tighty rusties". So, I bought a $900 (approx) softener from Home Depot around '96, installed it, had the water tested in order to know what settings to use. The results were that the water was extremely "slippery" feeling in the shower, tasted weird (un-natural), & the softener used way more salt than I thought it would; I'd have to buy as many bags as I could carry at a time, & HD (where I got them) is only 2 miles away. Now, it did "improve" (ie not eliminate) the iron sitting in the toilet & the hard water deposits around the toilet water level & faucets. Fortunately 3 or 4 years later city water came down our street & I was able to say good riddance to the softener. The city water has completely eliminated all iron & hard water deposits from the house.

 

[Travelover]

I have no doubt that Kinetico makes good water softeners, but I'm skeptical that they work that much better than the big box store brands like GE. I've had a Water Boss brand for 20 years and a GE reverse osmosis system (drinking only) for 8 years and both have worked great. Water is not as soft as "city" water, but toilets and showers are not rusty and soap washes off after a little scrubbing.

The reverse osmosis takes out the salt that the water softener adds.

 

[rswyan]

The results were that the water was extremely "slippery" feeling in the shower ......

That's because with soft water you are actually able to rinse off all the soap scum ..... and it's not leaving mineral residue on your skin .....

tasted weird (un-natural)

It's largely a matter of what you are used to ....

Me, I've been on soft water for the last 40 years ..... drinking hard water makes me gag ......

 

[Pushing_Tin]

When we built our new house we also had to install a softener and an R/O unit for drinking. We also have plenty of water, it's just quite hard and full of iron and sulfur. We chose the Kinetico because it does not run on electric and is very reliable. We paid just under $6k for our whole setup, but I have been very pleased over the past 2+ years.

 

[skipmarcy]

Yea, we've had many water softners over the years, our first one we bought in Va was a Rainsoft brand - another high-dollar unit - it worked well but no better than a much less expensive one. Our current one is a Kenmore we bought at the Sears Outlet in Nashville 4 years ago for $275 - it works just as well as any we've ever had. If you're getting salt in your water from a softner, there's something wrong with it !! A properly operating softner will not allow any salt into the system. Our water here is right at 15 parts on hardness too with just a trace of clear water iron, I go thru approx. 6 bags (300 lbs.) or so of salt a year - that's about $35 - $40 worth and we treat all of the water we use, not just a few fixtures. We use the iron remover formula salt - it's the same price as the plain. If you can do basic plumbing procedures and follow directions you can install either of the systems yourself and save alot in labor costs.

We had a small undersink RO filter unit at our house in Florida that did just the kitchen sink and icemaker in the refrig - it cost about $200 originally and filters once a year were around $50. A whole house unit would obviously cost more but I can't see $5k for the 2 systems. I think I would shop around more and see what's out there.

 

[Chilly807]

That does seem hellishly expensive, even by Canadian standards... ours was under $3k installed. Excalibur softener, it has a water meter so it only re-generates when needed instead of time-based. Also a reverse osmosis to remove salt and anything else the softener doesn't get. Best water I've tasted in a long time.

Those are really high dissolved solids numbers !

Sean

 

[TheGoose]

The softner should not be putting salt into your water. It only uses the salt to regenerate the ion exchanger, then it should be flushed out. There may be a little residual salt left over but I don't think they actually add much actual salt to your daily intake.

Kinetico is top notch and the most expensive. There are softners out there that are cheaper that will do a good job.

Stay away from the Big Box Stores softners.

 

[mrutkaus]

Just FYI, there are electronic 'softeners' out there I really don't know anything much about them and they may all be snake oil, but just looking, here's one of many:

HydroCare USA


Mike

 

[ronjhall]

To give you a idea what the real cost of a good softener and RO systems cost. Check out this place. Water Softener, Fleck.
I have the dual tank softener and 5 stage RO.

 

[kidr]

I bought and installed a Morton brand softener myself. It works great with potassium salt. Also uses regular salt.It senses the water useage and adjusts regeneration accordingly. Under $400 if I recall. Why would you need an RO if you don't have bacteria?

 

[Egon]

There may be a little residual salt left over but I don't think they actually add much actual salt to your daily intake.

If you are using salt in your softener the sodium ion replaces the hardness ion in the water. You get sodium in the softened water.

Reverse osmosis filters may have a limit on the TDS of the raw water that they can handle.

 

[bp fick]

Had a great well, a few years back, in volume, but lots of hardness and red iron. I did a DIY install of a Sears (at that time) softener. Very inexpensive and very effective.

The discharge is too salty for your septic. I discharged to an underground rock pit. Still, residue of sodium remained in the water. We did not like drinking it, so we used a simple RO for drinking water only. No need to RO the rest of the water for laundry, bathing, etc.

I'd do it again, the same way, if faced with it.

 

[Chilly807]

If you are using salt in your softener the sodium ion replaces the hardness ion in the water. You get sodium in the softened water.

Reverse osmosis filters may have a limit on the TDS of the raw water that they can handle.

Exactly.. if you're on a low sodium diet your doctor isn't going to be happy with you.

Our TDS was 230 ppm, which is pretty low by most standards. The Canadian limit for sodium is 300 ppm in drinking water, and most doctors with an eye on your blood pressure like to see something in the order of 20-30 ppm sodium level.

The salt softeners do exchange hardness for sodium, as Egon said, and in most cases it isn't a problem. Ours would have been in time.

The no-salt softeners don't do well with water that has high manganese or TDS, according to our installer. If you have simple hardness problems (few do) they are fine. What they do is alter the molecular structure of the hardness (usually calcium) so that it doesn't attach itself to pipes, fixtures, etc.

The reverse osmosis looked after the sodium content in our softened water, and also produces the best tasting water I've ever drunk.

We also had concerns with dumping the salt brine and backwash into the septic system, it will form deposits over time that can clog the system. We dump ours outside via a gravity drain. Not a perfect solution, but not bad considering the tons of road salt the municipality dumps on our roads every year for snow and ice.

Sean

 

[honorbound]

Just a note. The R/O water removes ALL minerals and impurities in the water. Water in its natural state wants minerals, hence it absorbs the minerals from the ground or mountain or whatever other sorce it can. Without the minerals in the water it will take them from somewhere and the only place will be your body. This is basic water treatment that you learn when operating a water plant or wastewater plant. I myself bring jugs of treated city water home to drink because I will not drink the RO water. By the way I have operated a wastewater plant for the past 20 years. Also if the water is high in disolved solids the soilds will have to be precipitated out which would create a sludge. In a water plant this is usually done with alum whereas in a wastewater plant it is done with alum sulphate, ferric chloride, ferric sulphate and others.

 

[PaulieD]

Thanks gentlemen,

I greatly appreciate the advice and information you've provided. Not having any experience with water treatment solutions, I felt I needed something more than an academic investigation. You have provided a ton of useful and interesting information. If other folks have more to contribute, please do.

My interpretation of the feedback offered, makes me inclined to price out a water softener and RO solution with other vendors, while at the same time revisiting the original pricing with the Kinetco Rep. Maybe he has some wiggle room in his price.

Thanks again,

Paul

 

[dodge man]

I agree with some of the others, I don't think you need a RO unit also, just a softner. I have a whole house water filter before the softner. The two together seem to do a good job.

 

[Travelover]

I put in the RO unit for about $150. My wife hated the taste of the well water and now she is happy. Now that's a good investment.