I would like to see what Derek says first.
But I will give you a hint, it is the same for both and it is not a Regular license.
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Heavy Duty Pickup Shootout
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I would like to see what Derek says first.
But I will give you a hint, it is the same for both and it is not a Regular license.
schmism
Super Member
:confused2: in my state (IL) any vehicle towing more than 10K lbs, regardless of the size/weight/GCWR of the tow vehicle requires a class A license.
which if i read it right is exactly what Dmace says.
NOTE: there is some confusion due to DMV (lack of) clarity concerning a stickered/vin'd trailer with a 14K GVWR hauling empty. (trailer curb weight of 2500lbs) and what license is needed. Some interpret that to mean yes you need a class A because its capable of carrying over 10K lbs, others say because your scale weight is below 10K lbs you dont need a class A.
NOTE2: CDL requirement is subject to type and situation of vehicle. Such as RV/farm/fire dept does not require CDL but still requires the proper class A/B/C/D based on size/weight of vehicle and trailer if present.
Even in IL the GCWR would still need to be over 26k before a 10k+ trailer would require a class A.
http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/drivers_license/il_licens
schmism
Super Member
incorrect based on the way i read the classes B/C/D
http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_x142.pdf
page 4 (your link did not work)
class C says the same thing with an upper limit of GVWR 16K
so the ONLY way you can tow IN EXCESS of 10K lbs is via a class A. as both class B/C say NOT IN EXCESS of 10K lbs.
put another way the ONLY difference between class B and class A is your ability to tow over 10K lbs with a class A.
and FYI if i read the diffrence between class C and class D correctly.... if you want to tow ANYTHING behind you, (even a 300lb utility trailer) you cant do it on a class D... you must have a class C
medicshawn
Platinum Member
There is no requirement for a CDL or special endorsement for Fire trucks for example in Virginia. I drive a fire engine every day that doesn't require anything but a standard drivers license. The standard fire engine weighs 40,000-50,000. Our department has 2 tractor trailers for Haz Mat and technical rescue, and our ladder truck weigh in essence of 80,000. Just a plain old drivers license.
schmism
Super Member
again thats were the state to state differences come in.
RobertN
Super Member
I'm getting ready to get my Class B firefighter restricted. Class B FF restricted or Class B CDL required to operate fire apparatus out here in California.
The gist is designed for the transportation of of persons for compensation, or property and:
GVWR greater than 26001
Tow any vehicle with a GVWR of 10001 or more
Tows more than 1 vehicle or trailer
Has three or more axles
Exceptions:
driver of only fire fighting vehicles needs a Class B restricted
The gist is designed for the transportation of of persons for compensation, or property and:
GVWR greater than 26001
Tow any vehicle with a GVWR of 10001 or more
Tows more than 1 vehicle or trailer
Has three or more axles
Exceptions:
driver of only fire fighting vehicles needs a Class B restricted
jcmseven
Veteran Member
Sorry to get this back on topic a bit, but it is what it is. Coming from a blue oval man that branched out, truck for truck the GMC is tough to beat. I am honestly surprised the results were not larger, as they certainly seem that way on the road. I will say I am most happy that Ford's new 6.7L diesel is seemingly a really solid engine that they can modify and improve over the new few years. I had my doubts that they could pull off an in-house design but they have. These engines are also super quiet and refined. My neighbor just traded his 2004 6.0L on a 2011 6.7L and what a difference for him!!!
John M
John M
Dmace
Elite Member
If the actual weight of the Dodge and trailer was under 26k lbs (within manufacturer spec) then it would only require a regular license since it's FACTORY RATED under 26,001 lbs GCWR and as long as you do not exceed that, you can tow what ever the difference is between 26k and your truck's actual weight.
So my 2010 Dodge RAM 3500 (26k GCWR) weighs 12,000 lbs with truck, payload, and driver. That means I can legally tow 14,000 lbs and stay within the FACTORY RATED GCWR of 26,000 lbs and not need a CDL. If I unload the bed, run 1/4 tank and lower my trucks weight to 9,500 lbs, I can now tow 16,500lbs without a CDL. The GVWR of the trailer DOES NOT MATTER when it comes to GCWR, it only comes into play if the total weight of the TRAILER exceeds it. As far as the GCWR, it is only dependent on the ACTUAL WEIGHT of the trailer and NOT the GVWR.
The Ford is FACTORY RATED to exceed 26k lbs GCWR which means you are now limited to 10k lbs without a CDL-A license EVEN IF YOUR TOTAL WEIGHT IS UNDER 26K.
So my 2010 Ford F-350 (29k GCWR) weighs 12,000 lbs with truck, payload, and driver. No matter what the weight of the truck is I am limited to 10,000 lbs towing without a CDL because Ford says my truck and trailer can weigh over 26,000 lbs. Even if that truck only weighs 9,500 lbs, you are still limited to 10,000 lbs because of that FACTORY RATED GCWR.
You seem to get caught up with the idea that the GCWR is GVWR (truck) plus the GVWR (trailer). THIS IS WRONG!
From Ford's website:
Repeat: THE GCWR IS NOT GVWR+GVWR. GCWR IS CALCULATED ON ACTUAL WEIGHTS AND NOT GVWR'S.
The GCWR is simply the total WEIGHT that should not be exceeded and THAT NUMBER is what determines CDL requirements and NOT THE SUM OF THE TRUCK AND TRAILER'S GVWR's.
Incorrect,
You can tow over 10k with a class D(or a C or a B), as long as the GCWR doesn't exceed 26k.
http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/drivers_license/il_license_class.html
The only significant difference between IL and the federal standard is that CDL's start at 16k GVWR instead of 26k GVWR.
Incorrect, it would require a class A, just like the Ford example.
GCWR for figuring CDLs is GVWR + GVWR, always has been.
Incorrect. 16,500+12,000= 28,500. Over the 26k limit.
Again, 2 completely different GCWR.
Incorrect, again. The Ford can pull the same as the Dodge with the same class of license.
Incorrect, see a pattern here :laughing:
Your trailer GVWR limit would be 26k minus the GVWR of the truck.
Ford doesn't get to define GCWR for the USDOT.
Anyone who has read the federal and state CDL requirements understands that GCWR= GVWR + GVWR.
The only one hung up on anything around here is the one making excuses for Dodge's numbers not being up to snuff.
schmism
Super Member
site a source
only information i can find defining GCWR is what the maximum scale weight of a loaded tow vehicle and trailer.
(per U.S. Department of Transportation - National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) - Towing A Trailer, Being Equipped for Safety - If You Already Have a Tow Vehicle - DOT HS 809 433 - April 2002)
Dmace
Elite Member
I have sited sources and different examples that all say the same thing GCWR IS NOT GVWR+GVWR. I don't get why you don't understand that. You love to tell everyone their wrong but CAN NOT PROVE ANYTHING YOU SAY! So start posting some facts WITH PROOF.
There is only one GCWR and it's the one that you obviously don't understand. GCWR is solely based on ACTUAL WEIGHT and NOT GVWR.
Feel free to post a link to exactly where in the federal and/or state CDL requirements that it says GCWR= GVWR + GVWR. I would love to see it since that is wrong.
Exactly! :thumbsup:
site a source
Only information i can find defining GCWR is what the maximum scale weight of a loaded tow vehicle and trailer.
(per U.S. Department of Transportation - National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) - Towing A Trailer, Being Equipped for Safety - If You Already Have a Tow Vehicle - DOT HS 809 433 - April 2002)
Duffster won't site any actual facts or regs since they all say the same thing I've been repeating over and over again.
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Diamondpilot
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Again this CDL stuff comes up. It all depends how you are using the truck and where you live. In your example every gray hair pulling a 5th wheel down the road would be illegal. That is not true. There are exemption for RV's, personal property like your tractor, ect, and farm use. The main thing to remember is the tow rating or the GCVWR is still the limit no matter how you use it or where so the Ford and the GM have a clear advantage over the Dodge at this time.
At the end of the day, CDL or no CDL, the Dodge trails way behind the competition at this time in both HP and tow rating. They will have to increase both if they want to sell trucks because bragging rights is what moves them off the lot.
Chris
At the end of the day, CDL or no CDL, the Dodge trails way behind the competition at this time in both HP and tow rating. They will have to increase both if they want to sell trucks because bragging rights is what moves them off the lot.
Chris
Lt CHEG
Platinum Member
Seeing as I'm not engaged in commercial activity I'll drive whatever I darn well please down the road.
As for the topic at hand, the bottom line is that we are all very lucky to have such great choices for such capable pickups. No matter what brand you choose you really can't go wrong. On a personal level, I'm glad that GM really followed through on beefing their chasis up enough to compete with Ford in the payload and towing departments. I think it's promising that GM recognized that they were at a competitive disadvantage with their towing capabilities which were really only limited by their chassis and made enough improvements to lead the segment in some areas.
As for the topic at hand, the bottom line is that we are all very lucky to have such great choices for such capable pickups. No matter what brand you choose you really can't go wrong. On a personal level, I'm glad that GM really followed through on beefing their chasis up enough to compete with Ford in the payload and towing departments. I think it's promising that GM recognized that they were at a competitive disadvantage with their towing capabilities which were really only limited by their chassis and made enough improvements to lead the segment in some areas.
wmonroe
Elite Member
How do commercial hot shotters run a 3500/350 and gross out over 30k? I know they have to have a cdl, insurance, dot number, etc since they are commercial but I was under the impression that you can run up to the weight you are licensed and insured for. At weigh stations they check tire load ratings, axle load, and what weight you are registered and insured at.
schmism
Super Member
As ive always understood, GAWR (maximum weight you put put on any single axle) was were a lot of people, particularly GN or 5th wheel haulers were often over weight.
because you would take that 26,000 GCWR meet it (having a scale weight for there truck/trailer of less than 26K) but a majority of the weight was sitting on the trailer (aka scale weigh of truck of 8K and scale weight of trailer of 17K, both within there respective GVWR) but because of such a high trailer weight, they wind up with a 3000lb pin weight which exceeds the GAWR of the rear axle of the truck.
they dont think about it much because they come in 1000lbs under the max GCWR of 26K (for standard license).
Ive always understood the "legal" weight measures as (for standard license)
more than 26Klbs scale weight = ticket (GCWR is over 26KK)
a 12K scale weight of a pickup with a GVWR of 10K = ticket (you exceeded GVWR)
above example of under 26K but with really heavy pin weight exceeding rear GAWR = ticket
under 26K scale weight but 14K scale lbs on a 10K GVWR trailer = ticket (you exceed the GVWR of the trailer)
and in the perfect storm, over 26K scale weight, truck weight over trucks GVWR with trailer weight over trailer GVWR with rear truck axle over GAWR = 4 tickets (youd also likely exceed the GAWR of the trailer axles also if you exceed the GVWR on the trailer = possible additional fines)
schmism
Super Member
a little whiteout on the paperwork and a "computer tune" as a service bulletin and they are back on top!
Dmace
Elite Member
Luckily for Dodge, those who want to sit in front of Home Depot or the grocery store "bragging" about their trucks can go buy those Ford/GM trucks while those who "work" them can still pickup a RAM.
I'll take a "medium-duty" diesel rated for over 500k miles before rebuild making "only" 650 lb.ft over a brand new diesel made by a company with very little experience in diesel manufacturing or a japanese made diesel plagued with recalls any day!
As far as max towing capacity (staying UNDER 26k GCWR):
Ford F-350 - 15,700 lbs (23,400 lbs GCWR)
GM 3500HD - 17,800 lbs (24,500 lbs GCWR)
Dodge RAM 3500 - 17,600 lbs (25,400 lbs GCWR) <-2011 model rumored to match cab/chassis 18,850 lbs towing / 26,000 GCWR
I know it's tough to see since they are all so close but it looks like Dodge is not the one "trailing"...
Big Bri
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