41b Hydraulic issues

   / 41b Hydraulic issues #21  
Well welcome to my world, full of many unknowns....

Best thing is to be patient and not break anything more than what you have...having the exCat guy can be your best bet yet...

as far as the hydraulic valve and every component on that machine is serviceable....a hydraulic schematic from Cat may help the guy with you ,(assuming he can read it) the unloader valve could be a possibility, without proper guages on the machine you won't know if it works OK when something goes back on .....be carefull taking things apart, they're not impossible, maybe difficult for you but not impossible....that's where the manual will allow you to understand how they are put together.....

The odds are that it is going to be something really stupid when you find it.....KEEP DIGGING>>>>>;)
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #22  
Also, hydraulic valves and components should be completely removed from the machine to dissect, one part missing or put back in wrong will add to your problems(very common mistakes), that way a nice clean bench will show extra stuff upon reassembly....:eek:
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues
  • Thread Starter
#23  
Ive cooled down a bit on the matter.... Im thinking about taking the valve assembly somewhere and just paying to have it rebuilt. Can this be done with out the machine present, or will they have to make adjustments to it on the machine after a complete rebuild? Also, any idea what a complete rebuild would cost to pay someone else to do?
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #24  
Can you add pics of valve?
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #25  
1st of all put your spanners away, and dont touch the machine anymore, until you know what your playing with. Im sorry to say, but you are going to have to buy yourself a manual ( if you want to do this yourself ) and a pressure guage ( 5000 or 6000 PSI guage ).
If the CAT mechanic comes out to your machine, he is going to have that manaul and read it twenty times over, so that he fully understands on how it works. So you might as well do it yourself !


-The steering works great with no problem
-The outriggers go down and up with no problem, but once they hit the ground wont lift the weight of the machine
-The front arm will come down, but has to be worked ALOT to get up
-The front buket will not tilt at all (all the way down at the moment
-the back swing seems to work fine
-the back arm works on one cylinder but not the other
-the back bucket seems to move ok.

Ok the steering should be its own seperate hydraulic system ( safety ), so that seems to be ok.

The rest the hydraulic problems are part of the same hydraulic system.
From reading your problems and what you have done, to me your pump is OK, it is just the pump management side of it.

2nd pic. This valve has a few different names depending on what machine they are. Pressure Compensator valve, DR/FR valve, plus many others, however they are all the same. They are all plumbed up differently depending on how the manufacturer wants his Pump management system to work.

The rear valve of this pic, is what sets your maximum system pressure, about 3000PSI.
The front valve is your minimum pressure, which could be set around 300 PSI.
Now the pipe going into the front of the valves is hyd pressure from the system. Now depending on how much pressure there is, will determine your system pressure.
Eg. If that small hydraulic line has 1500PSI in it, then add 300 PSI (minimum pressure set with spring pressure ), then the system pressure will be 1800PSI .
Therefore they system pressure can be set anywhere between 300PSI and 3000 PSI.

1st Pic: So what I have just said about the 1st pic, then I will take a guess and say its a regulator or a flow restrictor. Thinking more a regulator.

Ok why differnent pressure's? Im thinking it could be for starting up.
The pump has spring in it so that the pump is in the fully swashed position ( Swash plate is at full angle therefore pistons will be moving full stroke- ie Full flow ).
So poor old starter motor on the engine when cranking the engine over also is turning the pump over when its at full stroke trying to get the system to 3000PSI before the swashing back to a no flow position.
Therefore starting speed is going to be very slow and will eventually burn out motors.

So if the pressure is very low on start up ( 300 PSI ), the pressure will be met very quickly, and the the pump will swash back to a NO flow position, and the starter motor will be able to turn the engine over a lot quicker !

Now when you go to operate your hydraulic system, you then provide 300 PSI on top of the set low pressure (300PSI spring pressure ) therefore the system pressure will be 600 PSI, then 600 PSI on top of 300 PSI you will get 900 PSI now this will keep going until it gets to the maximum set working pressure of 3000PSI ( very quickly ! ).

Ok I hope your are not to confused as it quite hard to explain.
I have seen these same valves plumbed all very differently from Earthmoving machines, ROV's, test benches etc. And what I just explained earlier could be wrong. This is why you need to manual, so you can read what CAT have done in there Pump management system.

I hope you picked this up for a good price, because personally I think these valves just need a little adjusting, and you have one fantastic machine.
So hang in there mate, but the bare minimum you need here is the manual and a pressure guage.
The CAT manuals are pretty good. They will tell you how the system works and how to adjust them so that you get the correct pressure.

All the best
Duff :thumbsup:
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #26  
Agree with you Duff!!

I prepped a few pic's for clarification.....but decided take a step back and "watch", when I saw he took the valve apart...which was stupid, because now we can even get a gauge on.....LOL....

This is a perfect example of what happens when you think you know more than you do.......

There is NO way around this with out more information. A MANUAL!!! Period!!


cat_pump_compensator_text.jpg


cat_pump_type_plate_100_3259_text.jpg
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues
  • Thread Starter
#27  
Agree with you Duff!!

I prepped a few pic's for clarification.....but decided take a step back and "watch", when I saw he took the valve apart...which was stupid, because now we can even get a gauge on.....LOL....

This is a perfect example of what happens when you think you know more than you do.......

There is NO way around this with out more information. A MANUAL!!! Period!!


cat_pump_compensator_text.jpg


cat_pump_type_plate_100_3259_text.jpg

Aside from the problem that is keeping the pump from getting to full pressure, the valve for the front bucket was definitely bypassing and letting the bucket leak down, so I know that needed worked on. The cat mechanic was about 99% sure that my problems were in the front valve assembly, so I took the assembly out.... Looking back on it I dont know if it was the right choice, but they are out, so they are getting worked on now.
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #29  
Aside from the problem that is keeping the pump from getting to full pressure, the valve for the front bucket was definitely bypassing and letting the bucket leak down, so I know that needed worked on. The cat mechanic was about 99% sure that my problems were in the front valve assembly, so I took the assembly out.... Looking back on it I dont know if it was the right choice, but they are out, so they are getting worked on now.

bucket_valve_text.jpg
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues
  • Thread Starter
#30  

I tried taking those bottom caps off and one of them looked manageable, but the other had a bunch of ball bearings that tried to fall out and didnt look like it would come apart. So, you are saying that there are no O-rings on the spool, what seals it?

I was told that I needed to take the small hex head screws out (on the top and the two on the face) that are shown in this pic and check for debris in them. Was this advice corrrect? What I am starting to think is that maybe you guys think I shouldnt mess with the valves and the problem can be there..... Im at the point where im not going to mess with the valves for myself, but take them somewhere and have them re-built and just bolt them back on the machine, but I would hate to do that if its not the problem.
100_1663.jpg
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #31  
Quote:

So, you are saying that there are no O-rings on the spool, what seals it?

The valves spools are made to such precision/tolerance, that the spool will slide without binding, and not leak. I believe the o-rings are there to keep out water/debris. Some valves have o-rings, most don't. Some manufactures measure the valves ability by the leakage rate, as to so many drops per minute, the less the better. You probably have heard of bucket/lift arm leak down, and that is caused primarily by the pressure on the cyl to push the fluid past the spools, in the neutral position.
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #32  
I tried taking those bottom caps off and one of them looked manageable, but the other had a bunch of ball bearings that tried to fall out and didnt look like it would come apart. So, you are saying that there are no O-rings on the spool, what seals it?

I was told that I needed to take the small hex head screws out (on the top and the two on the face) that are shown in this pic and check for debris in them. Was this advice corrrect? What I am starting to think is that maybe you guys think I shouldnt mess with the valves and the problem can be there..... Im at the point where im not going to mess with the valves for myself, but take them somewhere and have them re-built and just bolt them back on the machine, but I would hate to do that if its not the problem.
100_1663.jpg

The spool is fitted in to the cast iron housing, about 1/1000 of an inch tolerance, which allows a very small amount of leakage to lube the spool.....on the out side en of the housing, outside the return core/gallery, which is low pressure, there is o-rings, the prevent external leakage....but these o-rings do not effect any of the port pressure....

I bet your pump is not receiving a pressure signal, and thats why we need a manual figure to logic of the system and to locate pressure check points....

About your bucket dropping/drifting down is a fault of a different matter....has nothing to do with the pump pressure....no hurry to fix that either.....and usually there is a failing piston seal or a leaking port relief valve that causes the drift.....

I read in some of your posts on other forums about this pump...and your previous pump was obviously so badly wrecked so metal scarp had traveled around in the system.....

There are some small orifices in the signal line system, also small shuttle valves if it is a Load Sensing system, that could be blocked by metal scrap...

You should not taking hydraulic hardware apart if you do not know what to expect coming out....no matter how much auto mobile experienced you are....

Very likely your problems could be solved just by reading and interpreting the hydraulic symbol diagram/drawing....300-700$ for a manual, start becoming cheaper and cheaper, the more you tear that cat 416B down.....:cool:
 
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   / 41b Hydraulic issues #33  
You should not taking hydraulic hardware apart if you do not know what to expect coming out....no matter how much auto mobile experienced you are....

Very likely your problems could be solved just by reading and interpreting the hydraulic symbol diagram/drawing....300-700$ for a manual, start becoming cheaper and cheaper, the more you tear that cat 416B down.....:cool:

Absolutely....100%.....this is not Auto School where you can keep changing stuff till it works.....:thumbsup:
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues
  • Thread Starter
#34  
Absolutely....100%.....this is not Auto School where you can keep changing stuff till it works.....:thumbsup:

Im not the type to just start changing things untill I find the problem. I can usually figure anything out on my own, but like I posted before.... I think I am going to take the valves to someone and have them go through them. Anyone have any idea how much I might be looking at? Few hundred? In the thousands? Few thousand?
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues
  • Thread Starter
#35  
I bet your pump is not receiving a pressure signal, and thats why we need a manual figure to logic of the system and to locate pressure check points....

About your bucket dropping/drifting down is a fault of a different matter....has nothing to do with the pump pressure....no hurry to fix that either.....and usually there is a failing piston seal or a leaking port relief valve that causes the drift.....

The retired cat mechanic that looked at it seemed pretty sure that the bucket leaking down so quickly and the pressure signal not getting to the pump were related. I.E. the valve for the bucket was the one with the problem keeping the pump from getting the signal. I am going to try to take the valves somewhere on tuesday and have them re-done, but only if I know for almost certain that the problem (or at least part of the problem) lies in the valves.
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #36  
The retired cat mechanic that looked at it seemed pretty sure that the bucket leaking down so quickly and the pressure signal not getting to the pump were related. I.E. the valve for the bucket was the one with the problem keeping the pump from getting the signal. I am going to try to take the valves somewhere on tuesday and have them re-done, but only if I know for almost certain that the problem (or at least part of the problem) lies in the valves.

I've never seen valves not hold load because of a weak load sensing signal...but I suppose doesn't mean it could not be....the valves will hold pressure with spools in neutral whether the pump/engine is on or not....that's why when you shut off machine things stay up....Yes?....Like others have said it could be another problem (I E Cylinder packing blown ect)...

Bringing in somewhere for a good go thru is good advice....have them bench pressure test after strip out, clean and reseal.....also have them backfeed pressure to work ports on top for leakdown (this will rule out worn out valve not holding possiblity due to wear or work port relief stuck open or worn)....also check spools for proper spring centering....if they stick or hangup off center (from corrosion in spring housing and/or foreign metal particles)this will do funky things too....
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #37  
also when going for the strip, clean and reseal every plug needs to be removed, cleaned, rinsed and blown out.......

I've seen some load sense porting has small set screws deep in valve housing with very little holes drilled in them( 1/16" or less) to supply pressure to pump.....these small orifices can be blocked with an old piece of oring or packing stuck in the hole....so don't overlook tiny stuff....

About 15 yrs ago we fixed a Portable Grinder Machine http://www.cbi-inc.com/ (the company that owned it spent 3 wks trying to fix it and gave up......Problem?....No Load Sense Signal.....
Small 3/8" set screw with .040 hole in it was plugged up.....VIOLA....after pulling all valves on a fishing expedition we found it!!!!!Plugged with old chunk of oring....Million Dollar Machine down cuz of something this small....:confused2:

Oh BTW....we found the basic problem cuz we had the Hyd Schem/test guages/flow meter on the machine....at least it gave us some insight on what to look for....
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues
  • Thread Starter
#38  
I've never seen valves not hold load because of a weak load sensing signal...but I suppose doesn't mean it could not be....the valves will hold pressure with spools in neutral whether the pump/engine is on or not....that's why when you shut off machine things stay up....Yes?....Like others have said it could be another problem (I E Cylinder packing blown ect)...

Bringing in somewhere for a good go thru is good advice....have them bench pressure test after strip out, clean and reseal.....also have them backfeed pressure to work ports on top for leakdown (this will rule out worn out valve not holding possiblity due to wear or work port relief stuck open or worn)....also check spools for proper spring centering....if they stick or hangup off center (from corrosion in spring housing and/or foreign metal particles)this will do funky things too....

He wasnt saying that it would hold load because of a weak load sensing signal, but rather what was causeing it to not hold a load would be the same thing causeing the load senseing system to not work. Weather the bucket dropping is in the valve or weather the valve has a problem with the load senseing circuit its still worth my time to take the entire valve assembly in, am I right in this logic?
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #39  
The retired cat mechanic that looked at it seemed pretty sure that the bucket leaking down so quickly and the pressure signal not getting to the pump were related. I.E. the valve for the bucket was the one with the problem keeping the pump from getting the signal. I am going to try to take the valves somewhere on tuesday and have them re-done, but only if I know for almost certain that the problem (or at least part of the problem) lies in the valves.

Cleaning valve and reseal do not make a lot of sense if you do not make a TOTAL CLEANING of the entire system

Clean up valve 150-250$ at the most IMO. 2-3 hr labor for a trained tech in a proper shop...resetting pressure on RV's not included....
 
   / 41b Hydraulic issues #40  
He wasnt saying that it would hold load because of a weak load sensing signal, but rather what was causeing it to not hold a load would be the same thing causeing the load senseing system to not work. Weather the bucket dropping is in the valve or weather the valve has a problem with the load senseing circuit its still worth my time to take the entire valve assembly in, am I right in this logic?

Depending on how CAT designed their load sense system there is a possibility that the load sense line could bleed flow off to tank if one or more load sense checks are stuck open. This could also cause the pump to not build pressure. Like others have said you need a complete hydraulic schematic to know for sure.

Roy
 

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