Gutter draining UP for short distance?

[jdmar]

OK, I know that sounds crazy at first. But I have a unique situation. On the "low" side of my barn I want to drain the gutters over to the other side and into a creek (legal here since it is rain water). What I want to do is drop the gutters into 4-6" pipe and go underground then up a bit to get over buried lines. It will then go back down into the creek. The discharge will be below the intake point at the downspout. It would in effect be like part of a "p-trap" in a drain. I know flow might suffer. But so you think it could be done?
Peter

 

[Duffster]

No, trash like leaves and such will gather where it starts to go up hill and eventually plug it. Also the standing water will freeze and clog the pipe and eventually break it.

Can't you go under the lines?

 

[forgeblast]

how far is your run from the barn to creek? how deep are the pipe burried? what types of pipes?

 

[JB4310]

It would work OK but as Duffster said if it freezes it not only wont work but would break the pipe, and debris will settle before the riser as mentioned. You could install some type of clean out access, where you could flush the build up out.

They make these pop up drain emitters, MasTer Landscape Supply - PopUp Drainage Emitter which are a good idea for some applications but I have to laugh when I see them here in New England. They work by the same principal as your plan where the weight of the water will push up and over an obstacle. going under an obstacle would be called an inverted siphon, could also freeze, if not below the frost line. That's if you came back up to the height of the pipe before the obstacle, if you could keep the pipe at that lower grade all the way to the exit, then it would drain out and not freeze.

As long as the inlet is higher than the outlet, and the pipe is solid with tight joints it will work.

JB

 

[AHNC]

"Up a bit" is an invitation to a long term nightmare. In NE Ohio you will have freeze issues as well as the other pioints brought up. How about this. On the far side of the barn from your intended drain point, can you turn that drain line into and through the barn and tie it into the "near" side. That should gain you a bit of elevation. Will that internal pipe freeze? That will screw this idea up.

Can you open the existing line and depress it a bit to gain the needed elevation to pipe it as you have laid it out? What type of lines are they?

 

[radioman]

Sounds like a nice recipe for a headache. Sounds like you need a new downspout going down from gutter straight at angle to other side of barn to that downspout then to creek like you wanted.

 

[johng52]

A leaf separator in the down spout will help prevent debris buildup, perforated pipe at the incline will keep water from standing in the line thus stopping the pipe freeze.

 

[tommu56]

Any trap in the line above frost line will tent to freeze too and bust pipe.

Can you run across the side of the barn and tie in to the other drop pipe even if you get 1/8 per foot its better than nothing.


tom

 

[archeryantny]

Hows the soil, is it rocky?

How far must the gutter run in order to daylight or pass the obstacle?

How is the grade?

I've got an idea that could work for you, but it doesn't work in every situation. As always pics would be a huge help!

 

[Pops15]

Add me to the list that think its a bad idea. Sure you can use perforated pipe but you'll get melting snow or rain before the ground thaws which means you'll have water standing in the pipe which could freeze.
Why can't you just go under the lines?

 

[EddieWalker]

Don't do it. It will not work and it's just a matter of time until you will have to pull it out and do it over.

If you only had pure water coming off of your roof, you'd be fine, but you don't. If the roof is made of shingles, then you will get the gravle and bits of tar in your drain line. If there are leaves in the area, you will get them. Even with a screen, you will get parts of the leaves in there. And most of all, you will get dust. I've cleaned allot of gutters, and people are always suprised at how much dirt comes out of them. Even in areas where there are no trees and no leaves, in time, without good flow, dirt will build up in an open gutter.

Your trap that you create by rising your line will hold every little bit of sediment in there. It's just a matter of time until it's full. There's no way to perdict that from here, but that really doesn't matter. If you have the time to do it the first time, you have to time to do it right and make sure you don't have to do it again.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[Diamondpilot]

No, trash like leaves and such will gather where it starts to go up hill and eventually plug it. Also the standing water will freeze and clog the pipe and eventually break it.

Can't you go under the lines?

Duffster is right. You need a drop rate of 1" per 10' or so. Eddie also brings up a good point about the little roof gravel.

Chris

 

[radioman]

hence the reason I suggested a new downspout from one gutter down to the other at angle. only solution to get rid of water fast before freezeing.

 

[/pine]

would a french drain not work to cary the water from the point of question on to the creek?

 

[DiskDoctr]

Looks like you got your answer on uphill with the freezing and debris. OTOH, if you install a drain basin where the two lines would meet (downhill vs uphill), the 2nd part could start from a higher point.

I did this when I put in the garage. Ran one drain into the side of it down low, another up higher out and to the creek. Drilled a bunch of 3/4" holes in the side of the barrel, put it into the hole I dug (about 2x diameter of the barrel) and filled the barrel with large (#3 I think) gravel and filled the rest of the hole with #2 then covered it all with about 8" or so of #2 gravel to blend in with the driveway.

Acts as a drywell, a drain, and a junction for these pipes. The area was always wet before. Now, even with a 40x60 garage in the way, it drains itself and the area the pipe runs from.

- JC

PS- for pressurized lines (no holes and joints sealed), the general rule of thumb is 2:1 for uphill. If you want to run uphill 2 feet, you must have 4 feet of downhill first (for the same size diameter, that is). That's why a lot of farmers have 50 feet or more of black plastic water line laying in the creek.

 

[forgeblast]

could always put in a rain barrel, or sump pump inside the rain barrel and pump it where you need it to go.

 

[alchemysa]

Similar systems are not uncommon here when running a rainwater pipe to a tank thats some distance from the house. (I have 3 such pipes at the beach house because I didnt want ugly overhead pipes running to the tank). As long as the outlet is lower than the inlet then water will flow but you will get water standing in the lowest point. If leaf litter is not a major a problem then you can just put some bird mesh over the top of the downpipes. (Thats what I have done.)

Water standing in the pipe is no big deal if you do NOT intend to drink it, or if freezing is not a problem. However we DO drink it (after it runs through a UV filter) so I dug a couple of pits at the lowest point of the pipes so I can drain the stale water a few times each year. The location of the pits are circled in the pic. (Taken a couple of years ago). I just have a couple of screw caps inserted into the pipes. An alternative to a pit might simply be a 'riser' from the lowest point will give you another outlet in the case of a blockage.

Personally I don't think you'd have too many problems with your idea unless freezing is a problem. But obviously you do have to have a reliable way of keeping leaves, sticks, even dead birds etc, out of the pipes in the first place.

 

[JB4310]

Sounds like a nice recipe for a headache. Sounds like you need a new downspout going down from gutter straight at angle to other side of barn to that downspout then to creek like you wanted.

It's not pretty but that's pretty much the standard way of doing it if you have gravity working against you at the grade where you want to dump leader.
As long as there's no obstacles across the back side, like windows doors, chimneys or stove pipes etc. You don't even have to go all the way to the other side, as long as you get past those buried lines and can bury the pipe at that point.

The way OP wants to do it could work except for the freezing factor, but that could be somewhat eliminated by using perforated pipe and stone trap around it on the side where standing water would be in pipe. If the pipe and stone trap filled (during rain storm) then it would flow up and over the obstacle. And unless it was a very poorly draining soil, the standing water would perc out, as mentioned, like a dry-well, before it froze. of course no guarantee but it should work sufficiently enough for a barn's leader drain.


JB.

 

[jdmar]

OK, I get the clear message...and good advice. I have a metal roof and no leaf litter on that side but I still think it would turn into headaches. I guess I have to dig it deeper below existing lines-- alot of trouble in this case but likely worth the effort. I have not cut any corners elsewhere...why start now.. I think I can get the slope under the farthest line without getting too low in the creek.

I also may look at running the lines into a field drain system I am going to re-install this year (the existing drain sysstem is over 80 years old). That would requir longer runs but would also take the water further down the stream. I could actually go shallower since it would run through soil that never really freezes (muck) so I could get the needed drop.

Thanks for all the great advice again. Sometimes I need to get hit over the head to see the truth! "Do it right the first time!"

Peter

 

[DiskDoctr]

I have not cut any corners elsewhere...why start now..
"Do it right the first time!"

Smart man "Good" jobs are not always admired and often forgotten, but "bad" work often keeps coming back, reminding you of what you "should have" done.

Tip: When digging under existing lines, use your machine to dig on both sides, a bit deeper than the rest of your ditch, then you can use a shovel or pick to pull the dirt out from under the line and dropping it into the deeper part of the ditch without having to throw it out of the ditch. Saves on the back.

Good luck.

- JC