At Home In The Woods

[EddieWalker]

The foundation contractor started finished putting up forms for the poured concrete walls on Nov 16, 2009. We decided to use poured concrete walls instead of block because I'm paranoid about leaks, mustiness and mildew in the basement. They placed styrofoam in the walls create the brick ledges.

On post #89, you have pictures of your footings for the concrete walls. They have rebar in them, and it looks like pretty big rebar. Rebar is measured two ways, in eighths of an inch, or the first number in eighths of an inch. 5/8's rebar is #5 rebar. half inch, wich is 4/8's of an inch is #4 rebar.

Are you using the same people on your slab that did your walls? The walls look very good. They know what they are doing.

The slab is full of red flags. No rebar in the footings and no chairs under the wire make me nervous.

Eddie

 

[JB4310]

I have one comment/concern. Why unformed footings? The most critical first step in a buildings construction is given little attention to detail like that. I know residential foundations are so over built as is, where typically one linear foot of foundation could support the entire structure.
Not saying your home's structural integrity will be affected, but being in the basement drainage field I can tell you that could make it a little difficult to properly install a sub slab footing drain system, which is critical for a dry basement.

I see no benefit to unformed footings, doubt it saves any time or money, probably more difficult to do and must be hard holding a grade.
I'm sure it's a geographically sensitive building practice, has to do with frost threat etc and is common there, but I've never seen that in 30+ years in construction.

 

[brin]

On post #89, you have pictures of your footings for the concrete walls. They have rebar in them, and it looks like pretty big rebar. Rebar is measured two ways, in eighths of an inch, or the first number in eighths of an inch. 5/8's rebar is #5 rebar. half inch, wich is 4/8's of an inch is #4 rebar.

Are you using the same people on your slab that did your walls? The walls look very good. They know what they are doing.

The slab is full of red flags. No rebar in the footings and no chairs under the wire make me nervous.

Eddie

Here is a picture of the pour on our footings when we built our house ..If you look close in the trenches you will see the rebar and chairs that Eddie is mentioning..hope this helps..

 

[mikefromnh]

Once again you have gotten good advice.

It seems to me that you don't trust your construction manager/framer/gc. Either you need to trust that he will start doing things right without your oversight or you need to find someone else.

New construction has a lot of variables. When people go with the low quote they often pay more in the end.

 

[bake321]

I'm ten miles north of the Tennessee state line in Kentucky. I'm also building a house at this time and living in a camper In this part of the world the contractors don't form up footers. They aren't even aware of the practice, also they use a footer mix that is impregnated with steel slivers instead of rebar. They also don't bring rebar up into a block stem wall of a craw space. A lot of things going on here drive me nuts having come from out west where things are done to the other extreme. I actually core filled my stem wall every six feet at the anchor bolts so that I would feel a little better. The builders here stuff the block with used cement bags and only fill the top block to set the anchor bolt. I talked with my 73 year old neighbor about how things are done here and he told me that his house was built sixty years ago this way and then pointed out the house next to his was built 150 years ago on rocks and hollowed out logs. I'm sixty years old and figure the house will last me.

Cary

 

[towmotor]

I've been checking this thread with great interest ever since I first spotted it just before Thanksgiving.

I can somewhat identify with Obed, since I lived in a 26' trailer with my wife and three kids while we built the house we live in now.

Our first house was one where I had to finance most of the cost. It was built in 1986, when, in southern New England, everyone was building something.
The bank forced us to hire a GC, and because of the boom then ongoing, the only ones available were the hackers.

The guy I had to settle with deviated from the drawings without consulting me first, he employed shoddy workmanship and building practices, and he never missed a chance to personally insult me or remind me of the screwing he could put on me.
His subs were no better.

Needless to say, the entire process was stressful for me, and I vowed never to endure such insult from a lowlife like him again.
It served as a challenge to me- that one day, I'd build a house by myself that was better in every regard than the one that arrogant hacker built.

When the mid 90's rolled around, and I had a substantial gain in equity in that house, we decided to sell and build a new house with cash.
I had befriended an architect who insisted that he would draw up a set of prints for me for cost-all in trade for a pan of home made lasagna (he was divorced and ate TV dinners all of the time).

Now, one big advantage that I had, and it seems that perhaps Obed does not, was that I built our house in our hometown, so I knew who the good subs were.
My excavator is a cousin to my wife, and he was a great help to us. The guy that handled the concrete work was one who has a nice reputation with the decent builders in the area, and he provided prompt, competent service.

I layed the sills the weekend before Christmas, 1995. The winter of 1995-96 was the snowiest I can remember. I must have shoveled out my living room ten times before getting a roof on the place.
Working nights(by halogen worklight) and weekends, I managed to complete the shell in about six weeks.
From laying the sill to moving in took me about a year and a half-and even then, there was much work left to be done; sleeping in that trailer was getting old and cold, so we didn't care.
The only things I didn't tackle myself were the chimney, basement floor, insulation and drywall. That was a big mistake-the guy I hired was a moron, we ended up re-taping/mudding most of the house ourselves, at a time when nerves were seriously frayed.
If I had had the money, I probably would have hired out more of the work, but hey, no guts no glory.

Alot of blood, sweat and tears-no doubt about it, but I can tell you this much: it was worth doing. The only GC I had to contend with was the guy I saw in the mirror.
We learned as we went and we got it done, for a price about a third what most people pay.
As a result, we were able to burn our (small to begin with) mortgage a few months ago, while many of our neighbors have endured foreclosure.

One thing I wish I had then:
Candid advice from builders, like some of the guys who have been posting in this thread.
What a help that would have been; it was just a few years before AlGore's invention really took off, so I was sort of on my own.

I'll keep watching this thread with interest. Cheering for the couple in the trailer.

 

[2manyrocks]

Congratulations on burning your mortgage.

I think we all want to see Mr. and Mrs. Obed and baby in a great home.

 

[Pops15]

Here in northern IL code calls for two #4 rebar in footings. That is NOT overkill by any means.
You CAN get the wire pulled up properly without using chairs. I've torn out driveways where I had to use bolt cutters to cut the wire after the concrete was hammered. Conversely I've also torn out concrete where the wire was still laying in the sand. It just depends on how contentious the workers are. Contentious workers will pull the wire up as they pour using long handled hooks, the tines of a rake, or their hands. The problem is finding contentious workers is getting harder all the time.
The concrete will generate a little heat as it sets up. If you're pouring at or below freezing you have to cover the concrete and insulate it. How well you need to insulate it depends on how cold it is. You might get by with visqueen and straw or you may need insulating blankets. Check with your concrete supplier to find out how temperature and additives affect set up time and strength.

 

[harpoonalt]

Hope all is going well on the house OBED! Having recently built a house myself, I know how hard it is to sort out all the information people throw your way. Even experts disagree on how certain things should be done. Hopefully no one here scared you back into the camper and onto the road Everyone just means well. I admire the way you've done things and you and your wifes ability to do things yourselves. Kind of the old pioneer spirit. Keep the updates coming and try to relax once and awhile so you survive the process!

 

[Obed]

We finally poured the concrete slabs! I'm glad this part is over. The concrete pouring began yesterday morning at 8 AM and was all poured by lunch time. The finishing work continued until late Monday night. We got a warm dry spell Monday - Wednesday. The pictures show fog but no rain. Overall I was impressed with the concrete contractor and his crew. They were very hard working and gave attention to details.

 

[Obed]

Chairs for the Wire
Using or not using chairs under the wire evoked quite a lot of comments in this post. I read the comments Friday regarding the chairs and I can see the advantages. So I called a general contractor friend that I trust who is an hour away and asked his opinion. He said he only uses wire chairs if an inspector requires them. He said that the chairs fall over and that they get in the way of the workers who will have trouble walking on the wire. He said you have to have trustworthy workers who are conscientious about pulling up the wire, chairs or no chairs.

Well, Friday evening I went to Lowes and Home Depot. Neither place sold chairs for wire. All the chairs were for supporting rebar and were too tall (3 1/2 to 4 inches). I later talked to our CM who said that putting chairs under the wire would just make the concrete crew mad when they showed up onsite. He was very much against using them even if I installed them myself. To be able to install the available rebar chairs under the wire, I'd have to jury rig the metal chairs used for pairs of rebair in footers and bend them over to be 2 inches high. Using wire chairs was quite an uphill battle so I ended up not using chairs. It appears that using chairs under wire in this area is rarely done.

Monday when the pouring started, the CM made a point to tell the concrete workers to pull up the wire. I observed that the workers were very conscientious about pulling up the wire. If you look closely at the pictures, you can see the workers pulling up the wire, either with their rakes or bending over and pulling with their hands. Was the work perfect? Probably not. Was the work good enough? I'm going to believe it was. Anyway, there's no use worrying about it further.

 

[Obed]

Are you using the same people on your slab that did your walls?

Eddie, we have 3 entities involved in our concrete work. We hired a foundation contractor to dig the footers under all the exterior walls and retaining walls and to pour the concrete walls. His footer and wall work looked really good to me. Next our construction contractor and his son did the prep work for the slabs including gravel under the slabs, footers for the interior load bearing walls in the basement, rebar and wire. We hired a concrete contractor and his crew to pour the slabs and do the flatwork.

Yes, we had some challenges with the prep work but I believe we got most of the issues rectified (including rebar in all the footers, compacting the gravel, and testing the plumbing) before the concrete was poured. At least that's what I'm choosing to believe. Otherwise I'd never sleep.

Obed

 

[dcyrilc]

It looks like you've addressed all of the critical items and it sounds like the weather's working with you. You won't regrett spending the extra effort for the drains, gravel, wire and slabs. It pays off in the long run!

You've got a beautiful start on a beautiful home. Sit back, take a deep breath, let it out slow, and sleep well tonight. You've earned it!

 

[Obed]

I have to say that our first week living in the camper on our property was filled with excitement. If you recall, last Wed. we had a wind storm that knocked down trees, dropped a limb on the top of the camper and poked a hole in the awning that covers the slideout roof. This weekend, my wife woke me up at 3:30 AM saying we had a leak in the roof. I went into the kitchen and there was a steady stream of rain water coming through the ceiling. The kitchen vinyl floor was covered with water and more rain water was coming through the ceiling at an alarming rate. My wife initially put our 2 largest pots on the floor to collect the water but they were filling much too fast. We ended up using a large cooler to collect the deluge.

I quickly got dressed and got a flashlight, went outside and climbed onto the roof. I found a hole in our aluminum roof about the size of 2 golf balls sitting side-by-side. Apparently, the limb that had poked a hole in our awning during the wind storm earlier in the week had also poked a hole through the aluminum roof. Unfortunately, I did not see the hole when I had initially inspected the damage.

The rain was collecting on the roof and running into this hole. It was 32 degrees F, raining continuously, and dark. I had to find some way to stop the water from running into the hole. I put my finger in the hole and lifted up on the aluminum and found if the alumnum was lifted high enough the water would flow around the hole instead of into it. I ended up placing a small 2 inch long stick through the hole and lodging the stick between the aluminum and the rafter below it. Doing so raised the aluminum high enough to cause the roof water to go around the hole instead of through it. I placed a bucket over the hole to complete the temporary repair. After 90 minutes in the cold and rain, I went back to bed.

Monday evening, I used this stuff Quick Roof to repair the hole. I cut and glued a piece of wood on top of the rafter and below the aluminum roof to elevate the roof at that spot. I then glued a piece of aluminum flashing over the hole. Lastly, I covered the area with a piece of Quick Roof.

 

[EddieWalker]

What's done is done.

I don't even know if chairs for wire exist. I've never seen them, or even heard of them. Chairs are used for rebar, and I saw that they were in place for your rebar. In my opinion, wire is used by guys who like to take shortcuts. It's why I thought there was two different contractors doing the concrete work for you. One set of pics show it done right, then there's the wire. I like rebar. I use rebar. I like it for a bunch of reasons, but most of all, it's always where I want it when I pour concrete. It works 100% of the time. It's more work in prep, and I think that's the reason some guys use wire. Personally, I think wire should be outlawed.

I see something totally different then you do in your pictures. I see thousands of pounds of concrete on wire with people standing on that wire, and nobody around to pull it up. I don't know how long you watched them, but I can gurantee you that the wire is at the bottom of your slab. Pulling wire up while spreading concrete is EXTREMLY dificult. You have to do it while spreading the mud, and keep at it during the entire job. There's too many people watching, and not enough pulling wire.

Thankfully, you have pictures to prove this. I'd hate to think of what would happen if you took him to court, but at least you have the ammo you need to win the case. One thing in your favor is that the slab is an interior wall and if I understand correctly, it will be heated and cooled. This will cut down on movement and the degree of cracking that you will encounter.

You didn't mention what the final decision was on putting rebar in the footings?

I'm also very curious why you didn't use the good crew who did your walls when doing your slab?

Eddie

 

[Obed]

Eddie,
I watched the workers initially. My wife stayed there and watched them during the entire pour. And I can confidentially say they were working hard at pulling up the wire. One person directed the concrete coming out of the pump truck while another worker beside him was continuously pulling up on the wire. You can see that in the pictures if you know to look for it. I don't think they could tried harder to pull up the wire. And the crew wasn't normally standing around watching. If it appears like that in the pictures, that's not really my observation. I have no issues with the quality of the flatwork contractor's work.

I'm not trying to argue wire vs. rebar. We put rebar in the main floor garage slab and wire in the basement.

Yes, we put rebar in all the footers.

Obed

 

[dcyrilc]

What's done is done.

I don't even know if chairs for wire exist. I've never seen them, or even heard of them. Chairs are used for rebar, and I saw that they were in place for your rebar. In my opinion, wire is used by guys who like to take shortcuts. It's why I thought there was two different contractors doing the concrete work for you. One set of pics show it done right, then there's the wire. I like rebar. I use rebar. I like it for a bunch of reasons, but most of all, it's always where I want it when I pour concrete. It works 100% of the time. It's more work in prep, and I think that's the reason some guys use wire. Personally, I think wire should be outlawed.

I see something totally different then you do in your pictures. I see thousands of pounds of concrete on wire with people standing on that wire, and nobody around to pull it up. I don't know how long you watched them, but I can gurantee you that the wire is at the bottom of your slab. Pulling wire up while spreading concrete is EXTREMLY dificult. You have to do it while spreading the mud, and keep at it during the entire job. There's too many people watching, and not enough pulling wire.

Thankfully, you have pictures to prove this. I'd hate to think of what would happen if you took him to court, but at least you have the ammo you need to win the case. One thing in your favor is that the slab is an interior wall and if I understand correctly, it will be heated and cooled. This will cut down on movement and the degree of cracking that you will encounter.

You didn't mention what the final decision was on putting rebar in the footings?

I'm also very curious why you didn't use the good crew who did your walls when doing your slab?

Eddie

Eddie,
I agree with you as to the benifets of rebar over wire and how hard it is to keep wire in place, but I think Obed has done a fine job at trying to address the issues brought to his attention and will probably have some of the best concrete work in a home in his area.

Listening to your opinion on the value of rebar leaves me wondering if you still poar the garbage they sell as concrete for homes or if you also take the extra step to move up to structural concrete with larger rock, specified angulars in the sand, fly ash, etc and poar it at the 2-3" slump it should be? You could even move up to a 7-1/2 sack bridge mix and with the right amount of rebar, gravel wouldn't mater because you could carry a semi on the open span.

My point is, he has done a superb job with the information, time, and materials available to him. He should be proud of the job he has done. And we should support him in the effort he has taken.

 

[EddieWalker]

It's not my intention to critisize or bad mouth what was done. I really do try to be complimentary in my replies, but when I see something that I don't undestand, I ask questions. When I see or read something that I think might be a problem, I like to mention it.

I've poured a few pads, and hired crews to pour pads. It's not very complicated, but it is physical. Crews will slack off if you let them, and subs are famous for inventing stories in why they are doing what they are doing. The worse is when they say it's what everyone does. That's a big red flag for me.

I also understand that pictures do not show a complete picture. I looked at all of them, and while there are several that show the same thing, this one is the most obvious. There's proably five yards of mud on the ground. There's two guys spreading it with rakes, and two guys working the hose. You can see very clearly that the wire is flat on the ground. When pulled up, it should be in the middle of the mud.

There are allot of reasons that pulling wire is hard. First, it's under some very heavy concrete. It's full of rocks, and it's getting thicker by the second. Then there is the trick of pulling it up and not pushing it down at the same time by walking on it.

When done properly, wire is better then rebar. I know this to be true, and agree with it. The problem is that it's almost impossible to do it properly.

Unfortunatley, issues with a slab will take years, and even decades to develop.

Eddie

 

[dcyrilc]

It's not my intention to critisize or bad mouth what was done. I really do try to be complimentary in my replies, but when I see something that I don't undestand, I ask questions. When I see or read something that I think might be a problem, I like to mention it.

I've poured a few pads, and hired crews to pour pads. It's not very complicated, but it is physical. Crews will slack off if you let them, and subs are famous for inventing stories in why they are doing what they are doing. The worse is when they say it's what everyone does. That's a big red flag for me.

I also understand that pictures do not show a complete picture. I looked at all of them, and while there are several that show the same thing, this one is the most obvious. There's proably five yards of mud on the ground. There's two guys spreading it with rakes, and two guys working the hose. You can see very clearly that the wire is flat on the ground. When pulled up, it should be in the middle of the mud.

There are allot of reasons that pulling wire is hard. First, it's under some very heavy concrete. It's full of rocks, and it's getting thicker by the second. Then there is the trick of pulling it up and not pushing it down at the same time by walking on it.

When done properly, wire is better then rebar. I know this to be true, and agree with it. The problem is that it's almost impossible to do it properly.

Unfortunatley, issues with a slab will take years, and even decades to develop.

Eddie

Eddie,

I agree with you here absolutely, except that I would still take #4 bar at 12" OC over wire. I didn't mean to critisize you per-se, but rather wanted you to realize that you were comming across pretty gruff and as you said at the beginning of your first post today, "What's done is done." The time for advice on the slab is past, and the time for our praise and support of his efforts is here. I have no doubt that the last week has been very stressful for him. No doubt, the leak didn't help any either.

OK, I'm done scolding.


Obed,

What's next for your schedule? Do you get an emotional break before you move to the next step? Can you sit back and enjoy Christmas before you go again? And by the way, Merry Christmas all!

 

[JB4310]

Well just another perspective and opinion based on my experience, not disagreeing with anyone.
I don't think OP needs to loose a minute of sleep over the way the wire was installed, here's why I say this. I have personally cut opened, conservatively 1000 residential basement floors and only 5% of those had any wire at all, and most of those were in attached dwellings like condos.

Wire does not prevent cracking it only prevents separation after cracking, that's why it's used in city side walks, driveway aprons, anywhere exposed to frost movement or heavy traffic, garages etc, especially slabs unprotected by frost walls, curbs or foundations around there perimeters.

Look at a residential basement floor it has none of those threats, it does nothing structural it's just a finished walking surface. No frost threat, no vehicle traffic, cracks are normal but they can't separate as the entire slab is locked in around the perimeter.
Granted 50% of the houses I've worked on are 50+ years old but many are only a few years old.

Obed are they going to saw cut stress relief joints in the new slab, that will help prevent cracks from running wild across the floor. That can be done easily up to 2 days after pour when concrete is still green, after that it's much harder. Or maybe they installed expansion joints? Looks like they didn't skimp on the thickness of the slabs.

IMO sub slab drainage is critical, some locals prefer exterior storm water management, are you doing any type of basement storm water drainage system?

JB.