What's reasonable Propane usage?

[dave1949]

Hi, I just started using TBN, great site, great people and I have learned alot.

I would like to get your ideas about how much propane is a reasonable amount to cook (range top only, elec. oven) and provide domestic hot water for two people.

We use 315 gal. of propane per year. I am guessing the cooking accounts for no more than 50 gal. of that - but it is just a guess. One gallon of propane equals 4.24 Lbs., so a 20 Lb grill tank would be 4.72 gal.

50 gal. of propane would be like using ten or eleven 20 Lb tanks - approximately - for cooking. We hardly ever go out to eat, the stove gets used a good bit.

What do you think? Is my DHW propane usage (265 Gal./yr) high?

 

[Bird]

Dave, it seems to me that there are too many possible variables for anyone to give you a reliable answer. Things such as the size of the water heater, how well it's insulated, where it's located, how far it is from the water heater to the shower or tub, whether you're using a dishwasher, how much laundry is done, whether the laundry uses hot, warm, or cold water.

For nothing more than a purely wild guess, I'd say it sounds a little high, although I would also have guessed that you are estimating your cooking usage too low.

 

[dmccarty]

Does the water heater still have the yellow energy sticker on the side? Can you look up the energy usage for the water heater and stove on the companies website?

We don't have gas but we did eat at Taco Bell Saturday night.

Everything is on electric. Our water heat is supposed to cost about $30 a month to run. Its 80 gallons and well insulated. Our average power bill including AC is about $120. That does not include heat since we use the wood stove in the winter. So $30ish a month of hot water and $90ish for lights, well pump, TVs, computers, dish/clothes washers, the dryer, and the range. For us I would guess the dryer, range, and host water heater eat up the most power.

Our power is 10 cents per KWH.

I don't know what propane cost per gallon. Might want to convert to dollars and compare my power usage. Not quite accurate but if should be a ball park guesstimate/start.

Later,
Dan

 

[forgeblast]

I know using the stove ,the cook stove ,will use a very little amount. I cooked from april to last week and when they filled the tank it cost me 13.42. Thats even when i forget to turn off the oven and it runs for a bit longer.
What usese a lot of propane for us is our three brick heaters, we run two heaters on low almost all winter long.

 

[dave1949]

Dave, it seems to me that there are too many possible variables for anyone to give you a reliable answer. Things such as the size of the water heater, how well it's insulated, where it's located, how far it is from the water heater to the shower or tub, whether you're using a dishwasher, how much laundry is done, whether the laundry uses hot, warm, or cold water.

For nothing more than a purely wild guess, I'd say it sounds a little high, although I would also have guessed that you are estimating your cooking usage too low.

Hi Bird,

Well, the water tank is an UltraStor 60 gal. Super Store model. It is heated with an internal heat exchange coil. The heat comes from a Peerless propane coldstart boiler rated at 90K btu, with a DOE output rating of 77K btu. The tank is about 30 feet from the boiler and is connected by a loop of 1" PEX.

The washer, shower and tub are close to the hot water tank.

We have a dishwasher that uses hot water, and the washing machine is usually set to "warm". We do about 4 loads of clothes a week.

I sure wish there was the equivalent of a Kill-a-watt for gas usage metering.
When the boiler cycles for the water heater, it runs about 25 mins. It doesn't often cycle when no hot water is being used.

The reason I am asking for ideas is I am considering a solar water heater, but would like to know if I have a big, small or no problem with the current setup.

We just signed up for propane at $2.19/gal for this heating season. Our electric rates are high - 16 cents/kw.

Trying to get a reasonable idea of how much others use in a similar situation.
Thanks.

 

[dmccarty]

Dave1949,

Regarding solar water heating, a recent edition of Consumer Reports had an article about the subject.

What is sticking in my head was that a system to heat the water for the four of us would be around $7,000. Kinda steep. But the Fed pay 30% and NC state will pay back 35%. The NC refund might take a few years to pay back since they will only refund up to 50% of the system cost in a given year. So it can take multiple years to get your 35% back.

I like the idea of solar heated water. It would cut our power bill and even with a power outage we could have hot water. As long as the genset is running.

Photoelectric is supposed to be dropping in price to due oversupply and lack of demand but it still cost 6$ per watt installed. $6 times 5,000 watts is alot of money even with a 65% tax rebate. Sure would be nice to have your own basic power supply though.

Later,
Dan

 

[dave1949]

Does the water heater still have the yellow energy sticker on the side? Can you look up the energy usage for the water heater and stove on the companies website?

We don't have gas but we did eat at Taco Bell Saturday night.

Everything is on electric. Our water heat is supposed to cost about $30 a month to run. Its 80 gallons and well insulated. Our average power bill including AC is about $120. That does not include heat since we use the wood stove in the winter. So $30ish a month of hot water and $90ish for lights, well pump, TVs, computers, dish/clothes washers, the dryer, and the range. For us I would guess the dryer, range, and host water heater eat up the most power.

Our power is 10 cents per KWH.

I don't know what propane cost per gallon. Might want to convert to dollars and compare my power usage. Not quite accurate but if should be a ball park guesstimate/start.

Later,
Dan

Hi Dan,

At our current propane rate ($2.19/gal), we spend approx. $57.50/month. Propane is a low energy fuel - 90K/btu per gallon. Oil is 139K btu/gal for example.

At 10 cents per kw, $30 is 300KW.

If your water heater cost is $30/month, it would cost $48 here. (300KW X $0.16/KW). 1 KW hour is 3,412 btu. So 300KW X 3,412 btu/hr = 1,023,600 btu/month. That is 11.37 gal of propane.

I am using about twice that much per month. That's a problem if the numbers can be relied on.

Did you have gas after eating at Taco Bell?
Thanks.

 

[dave1949]

Dave1949,

Regarding solar water heating, a recent edition of Consumer Reports had an article about the subject.

What is sticking in my head was that a system to heat the water for the four of us would be around $7,000. Kinda steep. But the Fed pay 30% and NC state will pay back 35%. The NC refund might take a few years to pay back since they will only refund up to 50% of the system cost in a given year. So it can take multiple years to get your 35% back.

I like the idea of solar heated water. It would cut our power bill and even with a power outage we could have hot water. As long as the genset is running.

Photoelectric is supposed to be dropping in price to due oversupply and lack of demand but it still cost 6$ per watt installed. $6 times 5,000 watts is alot of money even with a 65% tax rebate. Sure would be nice to have your own basic power supply though.

Later,
Dan

Yeah, those are the prices I am seeing too. $7K to $10K for solar hot water. I am thinking Gary's (builditsolar.com) home-made panel approach is the only way I could justify it. The storage tank prices are outrageous too.

Our challenging time of year is late Nov. thru late Jan. We tend to get extended cloudy stretches that time of year. But I think the other 9-10 mos. of the year, I would get reasonable solar performance.

We considered off-grid and grid-tie solar electric when we built. I like being green but can only afford so much.

Dave.

 

[dmccarty]

Hi Dan,
...
Did you have gas after eating at Taco Bell?
Thanks.

It would be impolite to say.

But I WAS HUNGRY. Friday night I worked 10 hours at the day job and at 5:00pm started up the DR Brush cutter to mow the lawn. Taint mowed the lawn but once this season.

The "lawn" was a tad on the long side....

Which is why I have the DR Brush cutter.

Took three hours to cut the yard and septic field so I finished at 8:00pm. Good thing I have a light on the DR.

For dinner I had two veggie burgers. I like them but not much calories. Saturday the wifey stopped at Taco Bell and brought me three tacos, bean burrito, and an encherito. I was NOT full when I finished.

We did leave the windows open that night.

That is my story and I am sticking with it!

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

Yeah, those are the prices I am seeing too. $7K to $10K for solar hot water. I am thinking Gary's (builditsolar.com) home-made panel approach is the only way I could justify it. The storage tank prices are outrageous too.

I am pretty sure that the Feds AND NC state requires a "professional" install to get the solar tax refund. Might want to check before you go through with the installation.

We sized our hot water heater to use in a solar water heater system in the future. I read you could do this but until we try I don't know if it really works. We don't have space for another big tank but I noticed that Rheem has a tank that sits on the roof. Normally that would not work for me but given our space limitation it might work. We could just use the side of the roof that is not on the pretty side of the house. But until we have cash for the installation its a mute point.

Later,
Dan

 

[dave1949]

I am pretty sure that the Feds AND NC state requires a "professional" install to get the solar tax refund. Might want to check before you go through with the installation.

Later,
Dan

Dan, I read that too. In any case, this is a 'next year' project if it happens. I thought I could scope things out this winter and make a decision. I am sure solar water would save me some propane. It's just the expense and another project.

Seeing the solar shed ideas made me think it would be cool to have a greenhouse incorporated into the thing. Plus, I could use a wood shed and a place to park my 6' bush hog. Then, I would have room in the garage to put the PTO chipper I plan to buy as soon as I win the lottery. These things grow and take on a life of their own you know.

We have a passive solar house and I think we have our heating costs under control. I have always meant to circle back and look at the water heating. I just didn't have time to put a design together before we began building.

I like your story - stick to it! Glad you were able to catch up with the mowing. Definitely a calorie burner job.
Dave.

 

[Jimbrown]

That sure looks like a lot of gas just for a stove and hotwater heater. I use about 400 to 500 gallons a year. I don't use it for cooking but have two forced air furnaces and hot water on it ,those furnaces sound sound like a blast furnace when they are running and must use far more than any cook stove. I have found from using the stove in my RV that the oven uses one heck of a lot more gas than the stove top. So if you bake a lot that might account for the usage.

 

[dave1949]

JimBrown,

Thanks for the info. I tend to believe I am using a lot of propane for hot water. Our oven is electric, so no propane gets used for that. If you are using 400-500 gal., then it makes my 315 gal. look like too much for what it used for.

Dave.

 

[marks]

We use about 800 gallons per year for our family of four. All appliances are gas, with exception of the oven. About 80% of our heating is from wood burning, and electric radiant heaters. The house was built in '01 and despite living in the mild climate of California's Central Coast, it is very well insulated and energy efficient. My first impression, is that you're are doing great, and are energy conscious.

 

[dave1949]

We use about 800 gallons per year for our family of four. All appliances are gas, with exception of the oven. About 80% of our heating is from wood burning, and electric radiant heaters. The house was built in '01 and despite living in the mild climate of California's Central Coast, it is very well insulated and energy efficient. My first impression, is that you're are doing great, and are energy conscious.

Marks,

Thanks for that input. I am getting a range of usages from different folks. I know it is a difficult value to pin down since as Bird said, there are so many variables.

It would be really great to be able to meter propane just like electric. Then I could say, the boiler just ran X minutes and used Y amount of propane.

We try to be energy concious, both for $ spent and the good of the environment, plus a dash of politics - but don't want to get side-tracked on that!

Our house is heated mostly by sunshine, we burn about 1 1/4 cords of wood per winter. We do use a small elec. space heater in the shower bathroom for about 30 mins/day to take the chill off in winter- the temp. can fall to low 60's overnight in that room. My Better Half doesn't think that is very comfortable in the morning

Dave.

 

[Bird]

We were on propane in 1995 and 1996, in a little single wide mobile home, but bought a new total electric double wide in May, 1997. Anyway, I just looked at my 1996 records and found I bought 383.1 gallons of propane for the year. Earlier in the year, it was 85 cents a gallon, but in November, it went to 97 cents a gallon. And of course my experience is likely not comparable to someone else's experience since it was just the two of us, we heated and cooked with propane, but the water heater was electric.

 

[dave1949]

We were on propane in 1995 and 1996, in a little single wide mobile home, but bought a new total electric double wide in May, 1997. Anyway, I just looked at my 1996 records and found I bought 383.1 gallons of propane for the year. Earlier in the year, it was 85 cents a gallon, but in November, it went to 97 cents a gallon. And of course my experience is likely not comparable to someone else's experience since it was just the two of us, we heated and cooked with propane, but the water heater was electric.

Good Morning Bird,

We had a single wide back in the late '70's in NW Ohio. I don't have records but I think the tank was 500 gal. and I'm sure the propane truck came 3-4 times per year.

Eventhough money was fairly tight, I guess we thought the cost was okay. On cold, windy days the furnace would be on more than off. Plus, we somehow survived the Blizzard of '78. The snow was packed solid in the jalousie windows and there was a mini snow drift across the hallway where there was an added-on room attached.

I tend to look at energy costs differently now, as in 'why pay if you don't need to'? I am becoming an absolute piker on the issue I guess.

Dave.

 

[Bird]

Dave, I'm like everyone else; gripe about the high cost of everything, but just looking at the old records, my propane in 1996 cost $396.62, including tank rental, and electricity cost $1,722.85, so the total was $2,119.47. This past year (2008) in this total electric house my electricity cost $2,145.64. So my total utility costs in 1996 were very close to my 2008 costs.

 

[scott_vt]

Good Mornin Dave,
As Bird stated, there are a lot of variables when it comes to propane useage !

I thought I might chime in because that energy form is what I use to heat my cabin in Vt. The cabin is about 900 sq ft maybe a bit more, and I have a 330 gal storage tank. I am only there a couple weekends per month, and when Im not there I leave the thermostat at 50 F.

In a normal winter, I can get by on one full tank ! I was lucky this year, I jumped on a promotional rate, $1.55 per gal, and I filled my tank early ! I also own the tank, so I can shop for the best price rather than have price dictated to me by a sole supplier !

We have a baked enamel stove that is the sole heat source, looks like a wood stove and it easily heats the whole place even in the coldest weather, other than the bathroom and the downstairs bedroom that I use electric heaters in when it gets bitter !

Good luck !

 

[EarPlug]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned doing a Leak Test. We had one done this summer and found a small leak on an outdoor connection that was in an out of the way location. We never smelled it.

Jack