Towing in overdrive

/ Towing in overdrive #1  

funny farmer

Silver Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
114
Location
northren mn
Tractor
ford 4000
I was hauling some cattle in my wife's 16' avalanche horse trailer with my 88 F350 non-turbo,with 5 speed manual the other day. After a while I decided to shift into overdrive to see what it would be like. The trick did pretty good keeping up the speed but when I checked the mileage I was getting 11.5 miles to the gallon. Here's the question, would it have been easier on the truck, and would I have gotten better mileage running it in 4th at 2200 rpms? It was easier to drive in 5th at 1700, but it was a little doggy. I know the general rule is not to use overdrive if your pulling or hauling half the weight of the truck, but I've never been one to follow the rules. And I kept an eye on the water temp and it didn't go up or down either way.
 
/ Towing in overdrive #2  
I know in a auto its a definite no-no. A customer of mine has a 8,500# boat and was heading to the Lake of the Ozarks and he decided to switch to O/D. He boiled out the tranny fluid through the dip stick in 10 miles on his Dodge 3/4 ton truck with a 360 gas engine.

Look at it this way. You save 1 mpg at $2.50 per gallon. A tranny rebuild can run as much a $3500 these days so you do the math???? Keep it out of overdrive.

Chris
 
/ Towing in overdrive #3  
I know in a auto its a definite no-no. A customer of mine has a 8,500# boat and was heading to the Lake of the Ozarks and he decided to switch to O/D. He boiled out the tranny fluid through the dip stick in 10 miles on his Dodge 3/4 ton truck with a 360 gas engine.

Look at it this way. You save 1 mpg at $2.50 per gallon. A tranny rebuild can run as much a $3500 these days so you do the math???? Keep it out of overdrive.

Chris
Towing with mine in OD is no problem. All you have to do is put it also in Tow-Haul mode. But then mines an Allison.:D It's smart enough to drop into 4th if it needs to. It's also smart enough to kill the A/C compressor if it starts to overheat. But it never has. Worst it has ever done is kick in the thermostatic fan on the long 5% grade at 85°.
 
/ Towing in overdrive #4  
Towing with mine in OD is no problem. All you have to do is put it also in Tow-Haul mode. But then mines an Allison.:D It's smart enough to drop into 4th if it needs to. It's also smart enough to kill the A/C compressor if it starts to overheat. But it never has. Worst it has ever done is kick in the thermostatic fan on the long 5% grade at 85ー.

The transmissions in the newer trucks are much different than trannys of even a few years ago. Newer trucks don't have ODs like the older trannys which have a true over drive. My understanding is these older trannys lock into an overdrive gear with a small clutch. It is the frequent shifting into and out of the OD that causes a lot of heat and problems. The tow haul button on the older trannys locked it out of OD. Your allison, my 08 Ford and newer Dodge trannys have 5-6 shifts in the tranny. The tow haul mode in these trucks changes the shift points slightly and hold the rpms higher in a gear between shifts to help with towing and don't use a OD like the older units. My cousin, who new better, just burned up the tranny in his 03 Chevy 2 weeks ago pulling a load of lumber. Forgot to put in in tow haul mode. My brother in law did the same about 5 years ago with his F150 pulling an enclosed trailer. I had a mid 90's Ford Explorer that had the hot engine light come on pulling a small pop-up trailer. The radiator also helped cooled the transmission. The tranny got hot, heated up the radiator and caused the light to come on. Probably saved my tranny with the warning light.
 
/ Towing in overdrive #5  
I don't think heat will be an issue, if you read the 1st post the tranny is a manual. Heating is not an issue with a manual like it can be with an auto. So as long as he is not lugging the engine too much or the clutch was slipping, I don't see an issue. I do see where he might actually get better milage in 4th depending on the RPM's and if that is closer to the engines "sweet spot" than lugging it in 5th. I don't think a OD auto trans was an option in 1988 on an F-350, I don't think it was until 1990 or later but I could be wrong on that. The only 88 Diesel auto I drove had the 3 speed auto.
 
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/ Towing in overdrive #6  
If you think you would have got better mileage running in 4th at 2200 RPM then run 4th gear. Using the 5th gear overdrive at 1700 RPM cut your mileage and lugged the engine.
 
/ Towing in overdrive #7  
The transmissions in the newer trucks are much different than trannys of even a few years ago. Newer trucks don't have ODs like the older trannys which have a true over drive. My understanding is these older trannys lock into an overdrive gear with a small clutch. It is the frequent shifting into and out of the OD that causes a lot of heat and problems. The tow haul button on the older trannys locked it out of OD. Your allison, my 08 Ford and newer Dodge trannys have 5-6 shifts in the tranny. The tow haul mode in these trucks changes the shift points slightly and hold the rpms higher in a gear between shifts to help with towing and don't use a OD like the older units. My cousin, who new better, just burned up the tranny in his 03 Chevy 2 weeks ago pulling a load of lumber. Forgot to put in in tow haul mode. My brother in law did the same about 5 years ago with his F150 pulling an enclosed trailer. I had a mid 90's Ford Explorer that had the hot engine light come on pulling a small pop-up trailer. The radiator also helped cooled the transmission. The tranny got hot, heated up the radiator and caused the light to come on. Probably saved my tranny with the warning light.
Mine is an 01. In automatics like the Allison, the OD(s) gearing is achieved thru clutch packs and bands applying on the planetary gearsets. The TC in the Allison ( pump per them ) is a lockup and the Allison can lock or unlock it in just about every gear. Shows up in tow-haul when the tranny drops into 4th from 5th at 2400 RPM and raises the RPM to 3200 RPM. If the load (torque needed ) is low enough, it locks back up and drops the RPM down to 2800. Sweet spot for torque on the big block is right at 3200. Even on the stretch with the 5% grades it still get the same MPG. Tranny temp stays the same as it does have a big cooler. Radiator temp will go up some until the fan kicks in. Then it drops back to 190.
 
/ Towing in overdrive #8  
Towing with mine in OD is no problem. All you have to do is put it also in Tow-Haul mode. But then mines an Allison.:D It's smart enough to drop into 4th if it needs to. It's also smart enough to kill the A/C compressor if it starts to overheat. But it never has. Worst it has ever done is kick in the thermostatic fan on the long 5% grade at 85ー.

Aren't they great? Mine's never seen more than 190* on the hottest days.

Other than DP's GM that everything broke on, just about everyone else that owns & operates an Ally loves them. Mine feels like a tank. I wish my 4800 had an Ally. :(

I was hauling some cattle in my wife's 16' avalanche horse trailer with my 88 F350 non-turbo,with 5 speed manual the other day. After a while I decided to shift into overdrive to see what it would be like. The trick did pretty good keeping up the speed but when I checked the mileage I was getting 11.5 miles to the gallon. Here's the question, would it have been easier on the truck, and would I have gotten better mileage running it in 4th at 2200 rpms? It was easier to drive in 5th at 1700, but it was a little doggy. I know the general rule is not to use overdrive if your pulling or hauling half the weight of the truck, but I've never been one to follow the rules. And I kept an eye on the water temp and it didn't go up or down either way.


I'm assuming your's is a ZF-5 manual. They have a .77 O/D on the close ratio and .76 on the wide ratio transmissions. In 4th, you're running 1 to 1.

My question is-did you check the fuel economy when you were in 4th gear?
 
/ Towing in overdrive #9  
My 03 3500 DMAX/Allison saw 230 going down hill and 230 on both tranny and eng going back up the same hill in Colorado...it was a big hill. The Ally is the best automatic tranny I have ever had the pleasure to use but it aint bullet proof...yet.
 
/ Towing in overdrive #10  
The water temp gauge is good to monitor BUT... a heavy load pulling up a hill and you could damage a diesel engine before the radiator temp would rise enough to alarm you especially if you aren't exactly stock.

You get a much better indication that responds more quickly by using an exhaust gas temperature (EGT) gauge, a pyrometer installed in the exhaust.

I could seriously overheat and potentially melt the top out of a piston under certain conditions if I ignore the pyro and rely on the water temp indicator.

Pat
 
/ Towing in overdrive #11  
Pat... your not running a completely OEM motor/electronics are you???
I had EGT & boost guages at the time and EGT never saw 1200 and it was pre turbo. Truck was completely OEM except for guages and exhaust brake.
 
/ Towing in overdrive #12  
a manual in OD is fine. I normal ran my wrangler in OD hauling sleds, it was something else that broke the clutch years later. I did try running 4th once. it made no noticable difference hauling the 102" wide one, never tried it with my other trailer.

I did notice a high milage crown vic give me worning signs after hauling the small trailer. its the autos that can cause a problem. even then, I don't think its a big deal if you are in flat land. I've cought myself in OD and not tow/haul a couple of times when hauling my really big trailer behind a half ton. The tranny is still here, but I can afford the extra gas easier than a burnt up tranny right now, so I don't risk it. I think its more that hauling a trailer in OD can be the little extra that pushes an iffy tranny over the edge.

as for bogging down the oil burners, it can be done, but they excell at high torque low RPM. its more to do with how much do you want to downshift.
 
/ Towing in overdrive
  • Thread Starter
#13  
I've got a short haul today about 60 miles with the same trailer. I'll keep it in 4 th as much as possible and check the mileage, I'll report back here tonight and let everyone know.
 
/ Towing in overdrive #14  
Like jagyzf said-- see if you can find a torque/hp graph for that engine, and try a few different rpm points to see if there's a difference.

A turbo would favor higher rpm, but that's not an issue for your engine, so it boils down to personal preference and driveability-- but there may well be a "sweet spot" that does best at combining efficiency & power.
 
/ Towing in overdrive #15  
Aren't they great? Mine's never seen more than 190* on the hottest days.

Other than DP's GM that everything broke on, just about everyone else that owns & operates an Ally loves them. Mine feels like a tank. I wish my 4800 had an Ally. :(




I'm assuming your's is a ZF-5 manual. They have a .77 O/D on the close ratio and .76 on the wide ratio transmissions. In 4th, you're running 1 to 1.

My question is-did you check the fuel economy when you were in 4th gear?

Never had a single issue with the Allison. It was the only bright spot of my 05, the Dmax and the rest of the truck were junk. Must have been built first thing on a Monday. That being said the Allison did not like heavy loads, say 12,000# or more with surge brakes. The Torque Shift handles surge brakes much better. The problem was in the down shifts. That may be solved now with the 6 speed and paddle shifter?

Chris
 
/ Towing in overdrive #16  
Pat... your not running a completely OEM motor/electronics are you???
I had EGT & boost guages at the time and EGT never saw 1200 and it was pre turbo. Truck was completely OEM except for guages and exhaust brake.

I have no "ELECTRONICS" per se as the truck in question is a '97 Dodge/Cumins, the last of the 12 valve-no computer plain vanilla Cumins in the Dodges. I have a pyro-EGT, boost gauge, and tranny oil temp.

The engine is stock but came with the HD valve springs which support greater retarding force capability with the exhaust brake.

The performance mods are: 1. replaced stock injectors with injectors having much finer holes, and 2. replaced injector pump with one that has considerably higher injection pressure. This sort of evens out and I spray about the same amount of fuel as stock but in a much finer mist which supports more complete combustion. I get increased HP and Torque AND at the same time a little increased mileage.

How can I get more HP AND better mileage? More efficient, i.e. complete combustion. I'm using the fuel more efficiently not just producing smoke like some "turned up" rigs do. A cost of doing business like this is the need for vigilance in monitoring the EGT as in the heaviest working situations you can force it to overheat. Mind you that if you let up a little bit and only ask the engine to produce a moderate amount of power above stock it will never overheat. Only when you go b---s to the wall for a reasonably extended period will it tend to dangerously overheat as indicated on the EGT. Heavily loaded towing up a steep grade I can drive by the EGT and pull the hill way faster than stock and not overheat.

Before I learned to be more moderate I twisted off the input shaft of Dodge's poor little under engineered 4 speed automagic tranny.

I have a Gear Vendors "Over/Under Drive" an auxiliary overdrive unit mounted to the output of the xfer case. This gives me 8 forward speeds (can't use it in 4wd but don't need it then) This essentially gives me "half steps" between each stock gear. I find that 3rd over is a very useful gear. The big gap in Dodge's transmission between 3rd and 4th is like having a missing gear. If you can't hold the load on a hill using 4th you have to slow way down to run 3rd. This is where 3rd over is so neat.

Lightly loaded and not pulling steep grades you can put it in OD-OD, i.e. 4th gear (Dodges OD) plus OD in the aux unit. Doing this gives about 85 MPH at 2000 RPM. This Cumins is happy at 1700 RPM which gives you just a tad over 70 MPH (about 72) which is a good deal for 70 MPH interstates.

When it comes to a few RPM or a MPG or two versus lugging the engine or straining the tranny, I prefer to opt for what is easiest on the equipment. In the long run harsh treatment of the equipment will result in more cost, less reliable service, and more down time. You'll never be able to pay for decreased MTBF with the fuel savings you might (just might, not a sure thing) get by abusing the hardware.

Pat
 
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/ Towing in overdrive #17  
I've got a short haul today about 60 miles with the same trailer. I'll keep it in 4 th as much as possible and check the mileage, I'll report back here tonight and let everyone know.

That would be good to know because at 1700RPM, you're actually a lot closer to the max torque rating of 1400 RPM on an '88 7.3L.

2200 RPM should consume more fuel and take you well out of your torque curve.

The ZF-5 speed was OK, but the ZF-6 speed was a big leap forward.

Interestingly, GM started using the ZF-6 in 2001 up until a few years ago in the GM-HD. The GM version of the ZF-6 was improved over the Ford version and had a few more features than the one used in the Ford Superduty. With the NV5400, the ZF6 might be the best light truck manual trannies ever built.

Light reading on the german made ZF transmissions: http://www.mackstrans.com/ZFID.html
 
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/ Towing in overdrive #18  
i roasted the auto trany in my 92 4runner towing in OD. I even have an aftermarket cooler and temp gauge. I noted it starting to slip, kept watching my temp guage, nothing.... kept getting worse so i dumped the OD and within about 10sec i had pegged the gauge and came costing to a stop.

The old trannies (like mine) were advised to never tow in OD. The new ones are built with extra coolers, extra kickdown features "tow/haul mode" IMHO it really doesnt matter on new trannies. (unless you have aftermarket chips etc that boost your hp another 300hp and your towing at or over max cap)
 
/ Towing in overdrive #19  
Never had a single issue with the Allison. It was the only bright spot of my 05, the Dmax and the rest of the truck were junk. Must have been built first thing on a Monday. That being said the Allison did not like heavy loads, say 12,000# or more with surge brakes. The Torque Shift handles surge brakes much better. The problem was in the down shifts. That may be solved now with the 6 speed and paddle shifter?

Chris
Only problem I've ever had with mine was more a factory problem. I had one where the flexplate wasn't correctly tightened at the factory and cracked the plate and ate the input seal. They also did a valve spring job at the same time that now keeps the OD out until 35MPH. Old one would allow it to come in at 30MPH. :(
 
/ Towing in overdrive
  • Thread Starter
#20  
I tried running it in 4th gear but gave up after 10 miles. It's just easier running in overdrive, it seems like running it at 2200 rpm is to fast for the motor, and the water temp was going up, it was about half way up the scale when I started using overdrive and after that everything worked just fine. There was only a couple of bigger hills that I had to use 4th for. I think that being the torque curve being at 1400 has a lot to do with it. Next thing I'm going to install will be a pyro so I know how hot I'm actually running. I was thinking of putting a turbo in this truck, but I'm hesitant because I don't want to cause more unforeseen problems.
 

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