My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Ok, if you're like me the suspense is killing you so I'll get to the point first.

I was wrong about improving performance, I think it might be 20% WORSE.

But I was right about the valves being interchangeable, it's the same valve on the outside. I was right that it's a five minute job with the exception that it didn't want to go easily into the hole and I was very uncomfortable forcing it. I could just imagine those little o-rings getting torn apart. I was also right that the spring does something and that there is a reason our tractor doesn't have one, it makes it worse. I was probably wrong about the conspiracy.

The thing is, the results are NOT AT ALL what I expected. I was looking for smoother performance, now my tractor jerks more than ever. I wasn't looking for the changes I see so my interpretation is subjective but to me it appears that the new LSV has increased the sensitivity of the PCV lever and amplified my PCVs jerking. If I move the lever 1 mm, the hitch responds with a jerk. Before, I think, it was more like move the lever 1/4 to 1/2 inch before anything happened... so how many mm's are in 1/2 of an inch because that's how many more jerks it seems like I have.

I think teg just nailed it in his last post, eccept it's the LSV that's burping. Maybe.

The other problem is, or seems, that it has gotten so much more sensitive that it's actually difficult to raise the hitch quickly without jerks. If I don't move my hand in a perfectly smooth arc, it seems to read the imperfection in the stroke and throw a few extra jerks in.

This may be good news, for those of you with the much smoother valve, it may fill in the 1/4 inch gaps! The conclusion is just not in yet. My next task will be to upgrade to the better PCV but that is a much more complicated and expensive task and it will take a while.

Here are some photos of both valves before the install and one installed:



And here are the videos, no need for the bucket of water this time:

YouTube - L3400 3 point New LSV
YouTube - L3400 3 point New LSV 2
YouTube - L3400 3 point New LSV Quick

 

[teg]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Any chance that you just have air in there (which would make it worst). I know you push the FEL to the max to make it go into relief mode to purge the air out, but how is it done with the 3ph??

Boy those videos bring back memories!!! All BAD!!!

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Son a of a gun. You've worked hard on this Harvest. I was hoping that this would be a success.

You are right in that this LSV needs to be tried with the the PCV from the older L3010 or L3000 - as it seemed to be the only thing (other than perhaps the cylinder itself) that was different in the circuit.

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Harvest - I want to re-assert my offer to contribute to your effort. It is much more affordable for one guy to be trying this out than all of us. If it works, it will benefit us all.

 

[teg]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

I can send you money, too... and if it works, you can send it back If it doesn't, well, we tried...

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

teg, I though it could be air too but I started out with the lift arms up (cylinder full) and then lowered them without the tractor running in hopes of purging any air that could have gotten in. Then with the machine running I raised and lowered the hitch with out the box blade through it's full range of motion several times and there was no change.

canoetrpr, I didn't accept defeat yet. This valve didn't work the way I thought in that it seems to amplify the negative quality of the PCV I have but I'm still hopeful, since it did produce a change, that it may take those 1/4 increments out of the 3010 valves function.

I'll be looking for something like what you get but with 1/8 increments. I don't see the valve lifting perfectly smooth with slow adjustment from the way I see the on and off by feed back linkage works but I can imagine very tiny soft jerks in the 1/8 inch range.

In simple terms, I'm hoping the PCV valve is doing ALL the jerking and the L3400 LSV is creating the incremental pauses by interfering with the flow into the cylinder, corresponding with the incremental delay at the position control lever.

I think the spring smoothes the flow out but the smaller jerks create a self perpetuating, resonating bounce. Like the feed back on a microphone in an auditorium, being that the jerking hitch is affecting the valve through the feedback linkage. Smooth it out enough and it just won't lock into the cycle or as in your proposal slow it down. Smooth or slow, either may do the trick. Both, maybe better.

 

[ht1]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Nice try!!

 

[canoetrpr]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

I still like the theory Harvest. You are an optimist!

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Really guys, buy yourselves a beer for doing all you can to help. Who could pass up that offer? This might all work out anyway.

If you want to do something nice for me, help someone who needs help. I've gotten my share from great neighbors and good samaritans alike. Next time you see someone stuck in a ditch at 2 am, when it's -20ï½° out... it might be me.

 

[mjfox6]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

I wonder if your new LSV would work in combination with someone who had their original PCV replaced (with the 3010 one) under warranty?

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Right mjfox6, that's exactly what I'm hoping.

I'm going to do the L3010 valve next. Well, maybe not me, TBD. Not Kubota for sure. Oh, my warranty is dead an buried but that shouldn't affect how the valve works.

I want to start, well after the LSV, with the best stock option before I even consider experimenting with an aftermarket retrofit.

 

[mjfox6]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

I don't know where you are located, but maybe there is someone close that has the 3010 valve and is willing to try. I'll stick it in mine if you are close to me or want to mail it.

 

[EE_Bota]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Harvest...thank-you for at least giving me a high speed lift segment in the video. I had no idea about the rate. It's FAST.
I needed that image to see rate, therefore flow.

My opinion is that your lift speed from down to up is very very fast relative to most old school tractors I have seen.

If someone can point me to some diagrams, I could possibly figure the system out. I don't have them because I have a BX2200. I have service/parts manual for that only. THERE IS a lift cylinder bleed procedure in there somewhere, and I will try to find it.

My opinion is not changed...rate seems high as a kite. Be sure and check linkage that feeds back position. Make sure there are no springs in that.

Gotta go..going to install the loader on my BX and my new cat1 2-pt draw bar. I will check back later. Someone on here has a fuel system problem, so if I have time I will check fuel system flow rate for that gentleman.

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Nice offer mjfox6 but I decided a few months ago that I'm going to have to give in and go for the L3010 valve anyway. I hope to set the wheels in motion this week. I'd like to have the new LSV in there when it happens.

If you or anyone else for that matter wants to try but not doesn't want to spend $90.. there are only 4 internal components that are different.

One is the shaft, it has a has a taper I think to about 1/8 inch from the end. It goes from maybe 3/16 to 3/32 at roughly 45 degrees. The one in the L3400 LSV is just a straight rod at the 3/32 is dimeter. (sizes are just for reference) I don't know if this taper is important, that shaft is set up for a different knob connection too. This part is accompanied by a double o-ring on the L3010 as opposed to a single on the L3400, I wonder if it is just beefier for the higher pressure in the L3010 or if the taper alters the flow characteristics.

The third and fourth component are the spring and the washer:
04012-50080 Washer $0.06 at tractorsmart.com $0.11 at Messicks.com
30812-37360 Spring $4.74 at tractorsmart.com $5.68 at Messicks.com

Thing is, if you want to try, for $4.80 plus shipping that should only cost $1.00 you could pop out the valve, pull the snap ring, insert the spring first, the washer second and viola, 10 minutes later have almost the complete LSV. And I mean it, all the other internal parts (three o-rings and the adjusting collar) and the valve body are exactly the same.

And if all else fails, I think the shaft, for about $15 and an o-ring, can be replaced without removing the valve from the tractor.

EE_Bota, thanks. I'm going to look for that bleed procedure too. Maybe there is air still in there.

 

[Reg]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Nice offer mjfox6 but I decided a few months ago that I'm going to have to give in and go for the L3010 valve anyway. I hope to set the wheels in motion this week. I'd like to have the new LSV in there when it happens.

If you or anyone else for that matter wants to try but not doesn't want to spend $90.. there are only 4 internal components that are different.

One is the shaft, it has a has a taper I think to about 1/8 inch from the end. It goes from maybe 3/16 to 3/32 at roughly 45 degrees. The one in the L3400 LSV is just a straight rod at the 3/32 is dimeter. (sizes are just for reference) I don't know if this taper is important, that shaft is set up for a different knob connection too. This part is accompanied by a double o-ring on the L3010 as opposed to a single on the L3400, I wonder if it is just beefier for the higher pressure in the L3010 or if the taper alters the flow characteristics.

The third and fourth component are the spring and the washer:
04012-50080 Washer $0.06 at tractorsmart.com $0.11 at Messicks.com
30812-37360 Spring $4.74 at tractorsmart.com $5.68 at Messicks.com

Thing is, if you want to try, for $4.80 plus shipping that should only cost $1.00 you could pop out the valve, pull the snap ring, insert the spring first, the washer second and viola, 10 minutes later have almost the complete LSV. And I mean it, all the other internal parts (three o-rings and the adjusting collar) and the valve body are exactly the same.

And if all else fails, I think the shaft, for about $15 and an o-ring, can be replaced without removing the valve from the tractor.

EE_Bota, thanks. I'm going to look for that bleed procedure too. Maybe there is air still in there.

Right, you seem to have the internal parts differences figured out.
But,
But, butt, butt,,,,
What if ?
What if the REAL problem is in the linkages ?

One is needed to "tell" the hydraulics where you want the 3PH,
one is needed to "tell" the hydraulics where the 3PH is currently at.
As the difference approaches zero the movement should stop, there should be no overshoot, you would HOPE that the movement would slow as the difference approaches zero, but a quick stop may be acceptable.

Is there a baseline set-up routine for all this stuff ?
IMO this is a likely to be a (lack of) factory set-up as "parts".

 

[EE_Bota]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

I could not find a bleed procedure. I looked in my owners manual, and also in my service manual. Nothing about bleeding the cylinder.

If I am to believe the pictorial they use in the explanation section, there is almost no room for air to live, as the piston comes close to the bore edge when the lift is down.

So making sure the lift goes all the way down as quickly as possible a few times looks like as close as we can come to bleeding.

Sorry I mislead you guys. I could swear I saw it somewhere..

Oh by the way, my cyl diam (BX2200) is 3.15 inches. Lift cap. at pins 1210 lbs. System relief pressure is 1745-1800PSI Pump is rated 5.5 gpm at 3200rpm, but priority flow divider valve sends 1.8 gpm to the power steering, pto, etc, and keeps the 3.7 gpm for the loader and lift.

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

Reg, I'm thinking if we rule out the $5 parts with the 15 minute task then we can move on to more advanced solutions.

As far as factory set up, well, I think all L3400's with the lousy PCVs demonstrate similar malfunctions. Many thousands of them but I've only seen a few. The only solution I'm aware of to date is to replace the PCV with the one from the L3010.

There is definitely over shoot and quick stop. The quick stop first then the overshoot as the momentum throws the implement up past the stopping point. This is allowed by the one way/float nature of the 3 point.

I wonder if that can have a resonating effect on the linkage system or not.

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

EE_Bota, I don't feel mislead at all.

It probably just bleeds it's self with the first cycle.

 

[EE_Bota]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

There is definitely over shoot and quick stop. The quick stop first then the overshoot as the momentum throws the implement up past the stopping point. This is allowed by the one way/float nature of the 3 point.

I wonder if that can have a resonating effect on the linkage system or not.

I think you are onto something here. Where the lift shaft arms rotate at the casting, it may be possible to use a wax/soapstone/grease pencil to put reference marks to see if it does overshoot. If it does, the response will be a falling action back to the new desired position. If it is a really bad overshoot, it will shift the feedback part of the valve and actually drop the implement down...and if that overshoots...... I have noticed a resonance in some of the videos.

If there is a accessible feedback arm with linkage, it may be possible to remove some of the linkage and immobilize the feedback arm. That would give YOU complete control of the movement, like a loader valve. Then you could try your hand at quarter-inching. If you can't do it, the tractor can't do it, and it will be because of flow rate, as I have said too many times.

 

[Harvest Moon]

Re: My quest for "Grand" 3 point performance from my "economy" tractor. The L3400

It's clear as day to me that reducing the flow and slowing things down could only benefit us but, thanks to this discussion. I was hoping for a simple factory fix, I should know better.

I'm convince that the PCV from the L3010 is a way better valve and my tractor deserves to have one. It will be exciting to see what the new valve combo produces but at its best, it will still benefit from being slowed down 50%.

I think canoetrpr's solution may be just what we need although after 150+ hours I might be so happy with a fast smooth, at least 1/4 inch valve that I'll need another 150 to get motivated to try it.

The concept of having the adjustable valve is really exciting. We could control the up and down speed. That's Grand.