pulling weight???

c23380 · Jan 8, 2009

This is a tow part question and discussion. I am interested in pulling trees over, (small ones) and want about 75 to 100 feet of cable or rope. We use to do it with cable back in the early eightys but I was wondering what you guys think about rope. Second part of the question is pulling weight. If the tractor weighs about 3400 lbs what could you expect the static pull of it be in dirt, with 4x4. (30 hp). With its weight being 3400lbs, I would figure it only to pull 2500 to 2800 lbs best case. Is there a math equation to figure this or do you just double the weight and buy cable/rope at that weight range?? Thanks, Mike

pitt_md · Jan 8, 2009

I'm sure there is a formula to get a rough estimate but your going to need to know the coefficient of friction of the tires to the surface your on as well as the angle that your conected to the trees

What do you mean by pull over the trees? Are these living trees or dead? How tall?

SPYDERLK · Jan 8, 2009

I have done measured force pulls with AGs on good firm turf. 2wd with a little less than 6000 pounds on the rears. Pull was 7200 pounds at point of wheel spin with locked differential. I imagine your tractor would do around 4000# in the same conditions. More if you hung some weight on it. If youre in dirt I would use chain. Its heavy but trouble free.
larry

Treemonkey1000 · Jan 8, 2009

Leverage is a big bonus. If you can get your rope higher up in a tree that will certainly help. Using rope that isn't damaged is something you should do. Any tree can do fun things if it is weighted away or at an angle from your pull. Tree's with rot in them can spin. I use ropes often to help guide the tree where I want it to go. With a rope you have some elasticity when you load it with some pull. Where a cable doesn't stretch. The big big thing to worry about is having protection from breaking ropes, cables, tree's, branches, etc. Another thing that I use is pulleys to double or increase the effective pull on the tree. Again Safety is your primary concern. We don't want to be reading about you in the Safety forum.

Another method to get a line higher up in a tree that we use is a slingshot with a string attached. We shoot it into the tree and then haul up the rope with the string..

neucam · Jan 8, 2009

Small trees? how small. I use a 2700lb tractor tractor to knock over dead trees over 30+ ft tall, but I use a FEL on the back side of the tree a few feet up in a very low gear, it did not take much effort to bring them down. Pulling a dead tree from the front high up would not need much pulling power, but if it had all the roots intact, then it would take much more pulling power. Good 6000lb rope would be OK I would think. Otherwise use a chain saw before anyone got hurt from a tractor incident.

kthompson · Jan 8, 2009

Have you priced rope that will handle that?
Be sure you don't tie it but have hooks in it so you can unfasten it. (my experience here, might be other ropes you can untie).
75 to 100 feet is a lot of rope, are you pulling that tall of tree and think this will be safe, good. But do you really have that long of area to set up to pull in?
If you are trying to pull the stump up also and have the ability to, try running a subsoiler on the back side to cut roots and/or a good soaking of that soil for a couple of days also helps.
I have pulled trees like this with tractor and pick to have them fall where wanted, even against a lean with good results. But also had a tree take a compact pickup and just pull it where it wanted to as it hit my Mom's house. Based upon my limited stump digging from cut trees and digging of trees still on the stump, the top sure helps pop that stump out the group. As someone has already said, leverage is great.

JB4310 · Jan 8, 2009

This might help, a thread about a method to give lever advantage when pulling trees, not sure if that what your looking for, but with this you wont need 100 feet of cable/rope and will provide a mechanical advantage over just brute pulling.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/129506-tree-puller-hard-get-trees.html

PILOON · Jan 8, 2009

A real handy thing to have when pulling trees is a pully and short chain.

I often wrap a chain around a tree that is in the direction of where I want to fell my tree, feed my pull line and then can pull from any handy direction.

My first 'tree pulling pully' was made from an old wheelbarrow wheel.
I since found an old 'hay loft pully' that works great.
You do want about 8-10" diameter for that to work well!

I, more than a few times, cut and pulled 8-10" maples and birches that were leaning very close to cottages in a dangerous manner should winds have uprouted them.

Always be VERY careful of 'widow makers'!
That is a dead tree that when cut or shaken can drop the top end on your head or tractor.
Even the vibrations of a chain saw can drop those tops!

c23380 · Jan 8, 2009

Thanks for the info. I guess what I am looking for is the What to buy. Rope or cable. Just a best case senerio for instance would be tractor on pavement, with hitch point level with drawbar. What would be the max my tractor would pull? If I get equipment that will handle this, then when I hook to trees higher than my hitch and pull on dirt, then I will never exceed the rated strength of cable or rope. As for the length being 75 to 100' this will make the angle better for better traction. I had planned on digging around the trees and if I could not push them over with the bucket, then I will pull with the long rope and a come-along, or the tractor. Thanks

SFish · Jan 8, 2009

I agree with Treemonkey, for maximum leverage pulling from high up the tree will most likely tip it. The only problem with this is that forward motion of the tractor lifts the rear end so you lose traction. What I have done is use a snatch block anchored low to keep the rear of the tractor on the ground. To do this you should keep the geometry such that the distance from the snatch block to the base of the tree is greater (much greater is better) than the height up the tree where you are pulling. Also, the lower the snatch block is relative to the tractor the better because pulling then adds weight to the rear wheels.

Steve

johnk · Jan 8, 2009

Just because you get the rope high up in the tree doesn't mean it is going to get pulled over. I had a Maple about 20" DBH that I tried that with and the tree split 3/4 of the way up. Nothing is for certain when working with the unknown. It may be rotted etc. just be careful is the main thing....

c23380 · Jan 9, 2009

HEY, I FOUND IT

.......According to the published info I found, the term I am looking for is rim pull. Evidently using the traction coeficient of dir being hard pack then I would have to multiply the weight of machine by the traction coeficient of .55 and this is the calculated lbs I can pull. This being said my machine weighs 3500 lbs, so I multiply this by.55 and come up with1925 lbs. This being the max amount assumimg the load is not adding weight to the pulling tires, (ie load being pulled is lower than drawbar) then I shound be fine with a 5000 lb rated rope or cable.
Found this under the usable power section of a book called Estimating Excavation by craftsman book co, Deryl Burch. I would post the link but I am not sure how. Thanks guys

jonstark · Jan 9, 2009

When selecting rope or cable consider that a dynamic rope, like a climbing rope, is very stretchy and will come slinging back atcha like a rubber band with painful or injurious results. Static or non-stretchy rope, is less likely to stretch and snap back but will to a certain degree. Cable and chain are the order of the day. Harder to handle but safer by far.

jon

john_bud · Jan 9, 2009

I would think long and hard about how to protect from death when the cable breaks and comes flying back faster than the speed of sound. (literally)

Treemonkey1000 · Jan 9, 2009

C23380 are you wanting to pull the tree and root ball over in one shot? Or are you going to be cutting the base of a tree with a saw and pull it with the tractor? As mentioned in other post there are a lot of things that can go wrong pulling too hard on the tree. If you want the root ball to come up your are probably safer taking down a majority of the tree first. The trees will barber chair and snap if you are pulling from high up possibly even if you have dug around the base.
If I had my rathers about what I was using to pull a tree with it is a rope in most situations. I use 1\2" climbing ropes about 99% of the time. If they get cuts or nicks in them that rope is retired for other uses that don't need the margin of safety.
There are other threads on the site about cab protection and rear cab cages to help slow down chains, cables and other nasties from the operator.

kthompson · Jan 9, 2009

If you will use a pulley (fastened to another tree as has been mentioned) to run your rope or cable around and have the tractor away from it and several feet from the run to the tree if which ever you are using were to snap it should be less likely of hitting and thus hurting you or your tractor.

c23380 · Jan 10, 2009

Thanks for the ideas. I first have to splitt and finnish sawing up what I have down, but this spring I will begin the tree removal. I like the pulley and will impliment this into my process. Thanks to all who posted, Mike

JoelD · Jan 10, 2009

SFish said:
I agree with Treemonkey, for maximum leverage pulling from high up the tree will most likely tip it. The only problem with this is that forward motion of the tractor lifts the rear end so you lose traction. What I have done is use a snatch block anchored low to keep the rear of the tractor on the ground. To do this you should keep the geometry such that the distance from the snatch block to the base of the tree is greater (much greater is better) than the height up the tree where you are pulling. Also, the lower the snatch block is relative to the tractor the better because pulling then adds weight to the rear wheels.

Steve

I've seen guys attach the pull rope at the front of the tractor and run it under the tractor and out the rear, the harder you pull the more you load the front tires. Flipping backward is geometrically impossible. I thought it was a super idea.

Joel

two_bit_score · Jan 10, 2009

Why not push them over rather than pull them?

SPYDERLK · Jan 10, 2009

c23380 said:
HEY, I FOUND IT.......According to the published info I found, the term I am looking for is rim pull. Evidently using the traction coeficient of dir being hard pack then I would have to multiply the weight of machine by the traction coeficient of .55 and this is the calculated lbs I can pull. This being said my machine weighs 3500 lbs, so I multiply this by.55 and come up with1925 lbs. This being the max amount assumimg the load is not adding weight to the pulling tires, (ie load being pulled is lower than drawbar) then I shound be fine with a 5000 lb rated rope or cable.
Found this under the usable power section of a book called Estimating Excavation by craftsman book co, Deryl Burch. I would post the link but I am not sure how. Thanks guys

I think that that traction coefficient is very conservative. Even for a friction coefficient it seems conservative. I know for a fact that traction coefficient of AGs is above 1 on firm soil and turf because the high pressure points of the lugs bite into and interlock with the surface. As I said earlier I have done measurements showing a traction coefficient of about 1.2. Very hard pack would decrease this. If so hard as to eliminate tread bite it should be stated as the friction coefficient of rubber on dirt. The treads offer little benefit in such a case, only a little extra grab on irregularities.
larry