Clearing woods, building a pond

[mkane09]

I'm moving this from the Kubota forum. I've got 25 acres of woods that I want to partially clear, including a gravel drive onto a small knob, clearing a building site, digging a pond, leveling about 2 acres for pasture and/or large garden. The woods contain all sizes of primarily hardwoods, from 1 inch to, oh, 2 feet in diameter. It is fairly heavily wooded. Parts of the land are fairly steep. I've got an L2800 with FEL, clamp-on bucket forks, bushhog and ripper box. An 18" Stihl. My plan is to cut down and burn the smaller (under say, 6 inch) trees, log off the larger trees in 8-9 foot lengths, sell off any of the hardwoods of value and cut the rest into firewood. My questions: I think I will need to rent a small dozer (6 foot blade), and have been advised to rent a trackhoe to pluck tree stumps. Any advice on the equipment planned? Can I push small trees down with the FEL? How big? Will I need the trackhoe or can I just rip the stumps out with the dozer? In terms of moving dirt, the pond will be approximately 30 yards wide by 80-100 yards long, minimum 8 feet deep with probably 4 feet of that built up on the low end. Will my FEL be able to lift a white oak log 9 feet long and 24 inches in diameter?

I plan on clearing about 4-5 acres of the total. Any advice from those who have already done this would be appreciated.

Mike

 

[JustGary]

Mike -

Welcome to TBN!

I also have an L2800, and I have been very impressed with the work it will do. I can successfully push over trees up to about 6" in diameter, but some of them take quite a bit of effort. I do live in Florida, so I can probably get bigger trees because I live in sand.

Raise your bucket about head high and ram the tree from a few feet away. Start slowly and closely at first until you learn what your body will take (the seat belt will catch you, but it gets uncomfortable). You'll quickly learn just how hard you want to hit something. If you can see the tree move at the ground at all, you can probably push it over (eventually).

It helps to have a clear shot all of the way around the tree, but you can also hang the side of the bucket around the tree and pull it towards you. By the way, it is also an excellent way to pull a tree on top of you, so as always, use your best judgement (especially if the tree is tall or has big limbs). I usually do this for small pines and it works well.

Once you get the tree over, you can get at the roots with your FEL and pop them with the curl function. Removing the whole thing sure beats leaving a stump to deal with later. That goes for the larger ones, too. You'll use a track hoe the same way, only it is much more powerful.

You may want to consider a grapple for your bucket, or even a root rake with a grapple. These discussion boards don't go a week without somebody showing theirs off, so just look around. I just recently plumbed my hydraulics for a grapple function, but don't have the grapple made yet.

Some of the other guys can give you more info on removing larger trees or working on steep hills. Perhaps you can sell the smaller trees for firewood? Even giving it away might save you some work burning it yourself.

Check Pond Boss for help with the pond. Excellent discussion groups about ponds. I want to build one, too, and have read a lot of good posts lately.

Oh, and as for the white oak log: Using .75g/cc density for oak, I figure your log will start around 1300 pounds. Your loader *probably* won't lift it (and if you do, be sure you have filled tires or a good counterweight), but your rear lift probably will. A category 1 fork attachment is pretty cheap if you want to go that way. Dragging the log is probably safer. I recommend the filled tires no matter what.

Regards,

- Just Gary

 

[john_bud]

First off whatever you think you need for clearing land, it's too small! Trees have a nasty habit of stopping small dozers rather than going over. If you want the lumber, you will leave a short stump. Even a rather large dozer will have difficulty with a short stump as there is no leverage to push it over.

Have you thought about renting a stump grinder for the left overs from the logging and maybe getting a mulcher to do the rest of the land? You are in TN and on the construction area, there is a mulcher from TN. Sounds like a match to me. Post up in that forum and you will get more answers.

I'll leave the pond stuff to others, but that will be a lot of dirt. basically 30X100X2 yards or 6000 yards of stuff to move. A member here (Eddie Walker) has stated that it costs about $1 per yard to dig and move. He is probably close on that as he has moved a lot of yards.

The log is about #1600 pounds, so no you can't lift it. You can drag it.

Timber and Lumber Calculators at WOODWEB

jb

 

[Leejohn]

Mike it's not how big of a tree it is, it's what kind of tree that hold you to size. When I push trees I have my bucket about 3/4 up, ease into it while I'm making sure there are no dead stuff in the top. Start pushing and getting some tractor weight on the tree, at the same time making sure the ground around it is moving. If it is, I well back off then push again and as soon as the weight of the tree gets over helping you it well come down. Then take the loader lift alittle on the root ball while pushing. Lifting more as I push.
If you run into a 4" tree and only bends over without moving the ground around it, you might as well move on to the next one. The main root well be about 4' deep and your are not going to get it out. I'm not sure what kind of tree that is. I'm in Mo and your only over in Tn and I'll just bet you well run across some.
Please keep a eye out for the dead stuff in the tops. They are killers!!!

Lee

 

[EddieWalker]

I have a medium sized dozer that weights about 40,000 pounds and is 169hp that's similar in size to a Cat D6. It's really not very good at taking out stumps. I have a 80 hp full sized backhoe that is allot faster at taking them out. The dozer is good for moving dirt around. It's not great at digging dirt, but it will dig allot of dirt if you stick with it and keep working an area.

If you have a choice for stump removal, the trackhoe/ or excavator, is the best choice, Like everything, more hp means less time to get the job done. Hardwoods are easier to get out then pines, but they all take effort.

The most dangerous ones to take out are the smaller saplings. They are more flexible and have a way of whiping around on you. The only times I've hurt myself have been on small pines. They have come at me from every angle imaginable!!!!!

If you can take out the tree with the root ball still attached, you will find that it's the easiest, fastest way to go. Cutting it and then digging out the stump sucks. It's slow and time consuming. For an example, a logging company will pay you a certain amount of money for your trees. If you want them to take out the stumps, it will cost you about what you get for your trees, sometimes more. The good side is that you get a clear pasture, but you won't make any money if you want the stumps gone.

My backhoe now has a grapple on it, and that has turned it into one heck of a tree clearing machine. I take them out whith the backhoe, then carry them to the burn pile with the grapple. I never leave my seat and it's non stop clearing. In a day, I can make a good dent in the woods, in a week, it's a significant.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[mkane09]

Thanks for all the replies, fellas. Leejohn, you wouldn't know a character there in Doniphan by the name of Linden Kane, would you? Ken Kane? They're my uncles. My dad's family was from Doniphan...

Mike

 

[mkane09]

How about using a trackhoe with a thumb for pulling and carrying trees to a burn pile? I'm also cutting a drive onto the top of a knob and clearing a building site. Any advice on stone/gravel base for the drive? The pond will come much later, so I have time to do the right research before I start that. I have a LOT of trees to remove...

Thanks for all the help.

Mike

 

[carasel]

mike,
you may want to call the tn. dept of forestry. they have a program where they will assist you with a list of reputable loggers, sample contracts. lots of stuff.
maybe you could sell your timber. make money and save time.
you might even get enough money to but some new tractor toy's.

 

[AX MAN]

Why not hire a mulcher to grind your small trees into chips?

 

[have_blue]

I've cleared a lot of land with a small tractor, but only trees up to 4" or so is practical. If you can get 20' of chain, a 5' choker, an old ax, and a helper it goes pretty fast. Chain to the drawbar and as high up in the tree as you can reach. Put a bind on the tree. If it doesn't fall and rip out of the ground, you may need to chop 1 or 2 roots. They're easy to chop when tight.

This works great for trees up to ~4". You can clear what you can before renting the track hoe. It will make things easier and quicker for the track hoe too, and may save a day or more on the project.

I want to reinforce what Eddie said on the stumps. For gosh sakes don't make stumps if you can avoid it. Stumps come with nice long handles on them for leverage, and if you cut them off, they're way harder to deal with. That's why trees blow over but stumps never do!

I wish everyone a great Thanksgiving!

 

[Leejohn]

Mike,
I have not meet them yet. I moved here in 1997 from Rockton, Ill and only go to town when I have to. I like working in my shop and running my tractors everyday, there is always something to do to run one of them. If I run across them I sure well tell them you said hay.
EddieWalker knows how to take trees out and if you need more help on that I would be calling him.

Good luck on getting the trees out, have fun doing it and be safe.

Lee

 

[Tororider]

I agree with Eddie and Have_Blue, stumps aren't any fun. I cleared about 3/4 of an acre with a chainsaw a pto mounted chipper, 6" capacity, and some chain. The stumps that I left too short weren't any fun to try and pull out and it was made lots easier with my dad on the tractor and me on the ground with an axe chopping roots. We were able to chip anything under 6" and made quite a bit of chips, although not as much as you would think for the amount of trees that went through it. I don't have a backhoe/excavator, but I am sure that would have made it infinitely easier to get the stumps out.

I think if you can find someone willing to work with you on logging your area you will be time and money ahead. Even if you tell them they can have the lumber if they leave you a fully cleared and level area, you can save yourself lots of time and effort.

Eddie would be one of the best to get tips on building a pond from, although I would second heading over to Pondboss.com as there are a bunch of people who do that for a living over there.

Good Luck!! And keep us updated.

 

[mkane09]

"That's why trees blow over but stumps never do! "... I wish I would have said that.

Good information, fellas. I'm going to start clearing as soon as deer season is over. Just after Christmas. I'll try to get some pics in progress.

Mike

 

[john_bud]

"That's why trees blow over but stumps never do! "
Mike

That is an Instant Classic!

 

[EddieWalker]

How about using a trackhoe with a thumb for pulling and carrying trees to a burn pile? I'm also cutting a drive onto the top of a knob and clearing a building site. Any advice on stone/gravel base for the drive? The pond will come much later, so I have time to do the right research before I start that. I have a LOT of trees to remove...

Thanks for all the help.

Mike

Mike,

The trackhoe is probably the best machine for land clearing that there is. Especially if you want the roots gone. If you are just wanting pasture of a field, then a mulcher is faster, and faster is always cheaper. With a trackhoe, you want enough HP to get it done without wasting allot of money buying HP that you don't need. Where that is will be the mystery. I'm thinking a 160 class machine is about right on up to a 200 or so. The smaller machines will be a challend on the larger trees to get anything done, and since you are not transporting it, there is no advantage to going smaller. The bigger machines are just so expensive that it's hard to justify the cost of them. Be very carful with a trackhoe and a burn pile. They have very good AC in them and it's real easy to get too close for too long to a fire and not know how hot it is outside. This is how allot ot trackhoes catch on fire. Look around and they are almost the only machines that you will see that catch on fire. Good advice is to leave the door open when working a burn pile. If it's too hot for you in the seat, it's getting too hot for your hoses and any oil leaks that you might have. The only disadvantage to the trackhoe is if you have to carry the logs or stumps any distance. It's just not very good or efficient at transporting anything. It's very, very slow. You burn where you are clearning and then move on to a new area, you start a new burn pile.

For gravel driveways, you want a good crown and drainage on the road first. The secret for a road to last is to keep it dry. Get the water off of the road as fast as possible is rule number one. The wider the ditch, the slower the water will move, wich makes for easier mowing and less erosion. When putting down the gravel, you can use fabric, but if the soil is compacted, dry and has a crown to it, fabric isn't needed. I don't use it, but allot of guys swear by it. Get road base type rock. It will be from several inches across to very fine powder and everything in between. It must have jagged edges too!!! The reason for this type of rock is that when it's compacted, it will lock together and form a water tight surface. Four inches is the minimum for it to lock together with 6 inches being better. Anything after that is just wasting money.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[mkane09]

Eddie, how much should trackhoe rental run me? I've been quoted $285/day by the local Kubota dealer for what looks like a fairly small machine (sorry, don't have the model number details). How much to rent a small dozer on average? Also, what is needed in the way of diesel supplies on site to keep working? How do I manage that? Buy/rent a large diesel tank, say, 200 gallons or so? How much diesel will a trackhoe burn in 8-10 hours?

I walked the land again today. There are more big trees than I originally thought. Not necessarily in diameter, but in height. Some have to be 50-60 feet tall. I'm thinking maybe a two stage plan here: I take down everything I can with the tractor and trackhoe, cut the bigger stuff into 8 feet logs and transport everything I can with the tractor, call in the professionals for the really big/tall stuff. What do you think?

Mike

 

[have_blue]

That's going to depend on the HP of your equipment.

I think a rough estimate is ~.5 Ga. per HP per 10 hour day.

 

[EddieWalker]

While Kubota makes an excellent trackhoe, it's a toy compared to what you want for land clearing. You really need to be thinking yellow iron and monthly rental rates if you are going to rent.

Prices are very different around the country on rental rates, and I'm not up to date on them myself. I did get some prices years ago and decided to buy the equipment that I needed instead. It takes allot of time to get anything done, and I've been at it on my land for over 5 years now with the results just starting to show.

Some of the numbers that I remember were in the $5,000 a month range for an 80 hp dozer. Most of the dealers rent equipment, but it didn't take long to do the math on renting versus buying when I needed it for years. Some months I don't do anything with my stuff and that's fine since it's paid for. Other months, I run them every day.

When I'm done with what I'm doing, I'll sell everything that I own and buy one brand new tractor to maintain the place. What that will be, I have no idea, but I also don't know when that will happen either. I do expect to sell each piece of equipement for what paid for them, or even more then what I paid, but probably a bit less then what I have into them with the repairs and rebuilds that I've done to them. New engines and things like that.

If you have a budget, then we'd be able to offer suggestions on what you could consider buying. My favorite, all around, do everything tractor is going to be a full sized loader/backoe in 4wheel drive and have a 4 in 1 bucket with quick attach so that you can remove the bucket and put on other attachments.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[cmuncy]

If you want a good idea of rental prices, go to Construction Equipment Rentals & Tool Rentals -- Rental Equipment, Rent Tools & Equipment | Sunbelt Rentals .
If you enter your zip code, it will give you a good idea what the equipment will cost you, that is, if you have one in your area.

If not, try using 77378 for a zip code as I have one just a few miles down the road.

 

[EddieWalker]

Cool site. I checked some prices and a Deer 160 excavator was $4,500 for a month, which I'd think would be the minimum for land clearing, though smaller would work, it would also take allot longer. The Deere 750 dozer, which is smaller then my Case 1550 dozer is $7,000 for a month.

Eddie