American made tractors?

[MessickFarmEqu]

I've got one concern if GM tanks... many someone can answer this for me. What happens to all those pensions? Do all those people loose their retirement... or are the tax payers on the hook for that too? Neither are good, both are expensive and in my mind would warrent some amout of government assistance. At least I can understand that more than AIG.

 

[SnowRidge]

I've got one concern if GM tanks... many someone can answer this for me. What happens to all those pensions? Do all those people loose their retirement... or are the tax payers on the hook for that too? Neither are good, both are expensive and in my mind would warrent some amout of government assistance. At least I can understand that more than AIG.

No, the pensions were transferred to a union managed trust fund several years ago.

 

[BungeeII]

VEBA was ~partially~ funded, I believe. (I could be wrong about that.) White-collar jobs were not union, so those guys (line supervisers, foremen, etc) could be looking at losing everything.

 

[thunderworks]

There have been a lot of good posts about this topic, many of which I agree with, but I think there is another theme that no one has touched on. Along with greedy management, excessively strong unions, obscene compensation for officers, there is also the topic of the American's consumer habits which have consistently pushed prices lower at the expense of quality. Our cultural bias to instantly gratify our wants, regardless of our ability to pay (hence the credit problem), has created the Walmarting of America. Quality doesn't drive decisions. Only price. Look how many posts there are on this forum by guys looking for the lowest possible price. The need to be "competitive" drives suppliers, manufacturers, and retailers to seek ever cheaper sources of goods and services. Tractors (or anything) made in less expensive economies, are purchased by the American consumer who is driven predominantly by price.

Complex topic, and I'm clearly no expert . . . but wanted to throw out another idea that I truly believe is involved in this issue.

 

[redneckford]

There have been a lot of good posts about this topic, many of which I agree with, but I think there is another theme that no one has touched on. Along with greedy management, excessively strong unions, obscene compensation for officers, there is also the topic of the American's consumer habits which have consistently pushed prices lower at the expense of quality. Our cultural bias to instantly gratify our wants, regardless of our ability to pay (hence the credit problem), has created the Walmarting of America. Quality doesn't drive decisions. Only price. Look how many posts there are on this forum by guys looking for the lowest possible price. The need to be "competitive" drives suppliers, manufacturers, and retailers to seek ever cheaper sources of goods and services. Tractors (or anything) made in less expensive economies, are purchased by the American consumer who is driven predominantly by price.

Complex topic, and I'm clearly no expert . . . but wanted to throw out another idea that I truly believe is involved in this issue.

Exactly!!! Look what happen to the Murray Lawnmower---Believe it or not it was a fine mower in its day then they began to sell to Walmart----Build 10,000 mower for this price and we will buy them-----So every year they cut the quality a little to get the business until there was no quality left and no business---Briggs had to buy them the cover their loss----Quality still matters---no one even the union person whats to pay for it anymore---Alot of people would buy a qualitiy product but that segment of the market is so small that the MFG's don't want to increase quality for that small market!

 

[intel]

good point, not that many people have quality being the main factor when buying something. i have even slacked on quality versus price. I still love to find items made in the USA.

 

[CinderSchnauzer]

Went 4 pages into Google after search on "Job Banking" and all results point to jobs related to Banking. Any other name for this?

 

[MossRoad]

That is the best way I have ever heard it stated. The greedy unions killed my town. We were a town of 120,000 in 1999, today we have about 65,000 thanks to the unions. The wanted more and more and were warned that the jobs would just leave because the demands could not be met. That's what happened. No one won. Shops closed, I lost my job as a pilot, people moved, and the town went to crap. We were in the running for a new Honda plant that would produce 200,000 Civic's per year. Honda flat out stated the reason they did not chose to build here was the history of the Union's.

Chris

History repeats itself. Here in South Bend, Indiana the same thing happened to Studebaker in the 60's.

 

[MossRoad]

Exactly!!! Look what happen to the Murray Lawnmower---Believe it or not it was a fine mower in its day then they began to sell to Walmart----Build 10,000 mower for this price and we will buy them-----So every year they cut the quality a little to get the business until there was no quality left and no business---Briggs had to buy them the cover their loss----Quality still matters---no one even the union person whats to pay for it anymore---Alot of people would buy a qualitiy product but that segment of the market is so small that the MFG's don't want to increase quality for that small market!

Murray was always the low end scale of lawn mowers, even when I was a kid.

 

[Renze]

Untrue. JD, CASE, CAT & others design & build thousands of larger framed tractors right here in the USA. They may use some foreign parts, but the bigger they get, typically the more domestic content they have. I just watched a program on the History channel about JD and they crank out thousands of massive tractors in Iowa each year.

Smaller tractors might be lucky to have Titan tires and a US built loader, but that's about it.

Yes, the 200 and upwards hp class of tractors has probably the most American content, no matter the brand. Its because America has the biggest market for it, and shipping is most expensive as they dont fit into a standard shipping container.

The 4045 and 6068 Deere engines we use in our wheel loaders, are built in Saran, France, and the turbo has a Deere name tag, with a Ceske Zbrojovka logo on it. Ceske Zbrojovka was part of the Zbrojovka group to which Zetor belonged too, untill 1976.

The parts manual mentions two engine plants, in Torreon, Mexico, and Saran, France.

Sure we do live in a global economy. The crisis that struck the American economy is causing collateral damage all over the world, in some countries a hickup, in others a stroke.

There is no way to survive as a production company when "dumb" work isnt outsourced to low cost countries with lower wages, lower health and safety standards for the workers and environment, unless the scale of production is so big that you can effectively utilise high levels of automation in 24/7 production runs. In Europe, ZF outsources a lot of its iron casting to Turkey, in Czechia they make piston liners for Volvo, Claas grass pickups are made in Czechia, and on the other side of the Pond, most stuff comes from Brazil or Mexico.

 

[N80]

Went 4 pages into Google after search on "Job Banking" and all results point to jobs related to Banking. Any other name for this?

Couldn't find anything either. It was on NPR yesterday (for what that's worth) and my wife had some sort of article (she does some freelance newspaper work). But, what she was describing was an agreement with union workers when automation started penetrating the auto industry and a certain percentage of paid jobs were required for workers who had no function. So they got paid, plus benefits, but did not work.

Now, not being able to find anything to verify this, I would not take it as gospel. I'll get my wife to give me a reliable source when I get home. Lacking that I would consider it an 'urban legend'. Especially since I don't trust NPR at all.

 

[AlanB]

I think one of the other big killers of US business is our desire to hold ourselves to one standard, yet buy from someone that does not.

EPA, OSHA, DOT and the litigating society we live in add a great amount of cost to a company trying to do business in the US that someone must pay. And while we all pretty much agree that they do good and important things, our money usually goes somewhere else that does not have to conform.

My biggest pet peeve lately is the IMO all to common conception that "they" should pay for "it". The Government, The manufacturer, the Oil Companies, The Insurance...... People seem to think that these are entitites unto themselves that produce money from a magic source (well, maybe they do ) but so many folks don't consider that some individual person is where that money comes from.

People need to understand that that money comes from someones work, and here lately it seems like there are fewer and fewer working, supporting more and more with their hand out.

 

[sunspot]

I'm in a union with "Job Banking" but it's not a free ride. Say if I get laid off, I can go in the job bank. That means I draw a weekly pay check for up to 9 months but it's drawn from my termination pay. At the end of 9 months, if I don't find another job within the company, I will receive any remaining money left in my termination pay. I would also continue to be covered by insurance while in the job bank.

Termination pay is based on years of service. At 5 years, it would be 6 weeks pay. 10 years=18 wks, 15=33 and 30 yrs would be 90 weeks. It's only a good deal if you had 30 years service and were retirement eligible.

 

[john_bud]

What do you mean not a good deal?

All I got was a kick in the a-- and push face first into the mud. I'd call that kind of deal pretty dern sweet.


On consumer habits, Thunderworks did make a good point. Just read over in the attachments area. A high quality Box Blade that will last the life of a 30-40 hp tractor is about $2000-2500. A cheap easy to break one that dosen't work nearly as well and will last maybe 3-10 years is $500-700. Imports are even less. Yet, many (even some who are posting in this thread) will get, or advise to get, the cheapest one and not the best one. Now think about the worker who is making the box blades and knows that the cheap ones are selling and the high quality ones are sitting on the lots, what does that do to the workers view of "quality"? WE need to look in the mirror and see if OUR actions are matching OUR words. I am naturally talking to all of America and not just TBN.

 

[Builder]

History repeats itself. Here in South Bend, Indiana the same thing happened to Studebaker in the 60's.

Didn't Hummer move into one of the old Stude plants out your way?

 

[N80]

A high quality Box Blade that will last the life of a 30-40 hp tractor is about $2000-2500. A cheap easy to break one that dosen't work nearly as well and will last maybe 3-10 years is $500-700.

I see what you are saying. But if you look at that price differential you're talking about paying 4-5 times as much and if the cheap one is all you need, what is the point of spending an extra $2000 which could be spent elsewhere?

By some accounts I got a 'cheap one' at $800. Not a KK or Howse, but still 'light duty'. It will last as long as my tractor.

So its not always true that low price is the common denominator. Some folks are simply buying what they need. It is almost always true that you get what you pay for though, so I get what you are syaing in that regard.

The problem with a lot of American goods these days, or when there used to be American goods anyway, and this particularly applies to cars in tractors, is that often times you could get better quality for less money. That's what's killing the auto and small tractor makers.

My Kubota cost less than an almost identical (Yanmar) based John Deere. That's really sad, because I'd have bought the Deere in a heart beat. Great dealer, closer than the (also great) Kubota dealer, but the tractor cost more and spec'd out slightly lower than the Kubota. It takes a lot of green loyalty and misplaced patriotism to pay more for less...especially when the 'less' wasn't built here either.

 

[redneckford]

What do you mean not a good deal?

All I got was a kick in the a-- and push face first into the mud. I'd call that kind of deal pretty dern sweet.


On consumer habits, Thunderworks did make a good point. Just read over in the attachments area. A high quality Box Blade that will last the life of a 30-40 hp tractor is about $2000-2500. A cheap easy to break one that dosen't work nearly as well and will last maybe 3-10 years is $500-700. Imports are even less. Yet, many (even some who are posting in this thread) will get, or advise to get, the cheapest one and not the best one. Now think about the worker who is making the box blades and knows that the cheap ones are selling and the high quality ones are sitting on the lots, what does that do to the workers view of "quality"? WE need to look in the mirror and see if OUR actions are matching OUR words. I am naturally talking to all of America and not just TBN.

Heck with buying----I just want to "Borrow" your $2500 box blade!!! We all have friends like that!

 

[Diamondpilot]

I'm in a union with "Job Banking" but it's not a free ride. Say if I get laid off, I can go in the job bank. That means I draw a weekly pay check for up to 9 months but it's drawn from my termination pay. At the end of 9 months, if I don't find another job within the company, I will receive any remaining money left in my termination pay. I would also continue to be covered by insurance while in the job bank.

Termination pay is based on years of service. At 5 years, it would be 6 weeks pay. 10 years=18 wks, 15=33 and 30 yrs would be 90 weeks. It's only a good deal if you had 30 years service and were retirement eligible.

Sounds like a good deal to me. If I loose my job I am sent walking. I don't even get paid for my remaining vacation.

Chris

 

[BungeeII]

Couldn't find anything either. It was on NPR yesterday (for what that's worth) and my wife had some sort of article (she does some freelance newspaper work). But, what she was describing was an agreement with union workers when automation started penetrating the auto industry and a certain percentage of paid jobs were required for workers who had no function. So they got paid, plus benefits, but did not work.

Now, not being able to find anything to verify this, I would not take it as gospel. I'll get my wife to give me a reliable source when I get home. Lacking that I would consider it an 'urban legend'. Especially since I don't trust NPR at all.

The Jobs Bank program wasn't ushered in with automation, rather an attempt by the union to slow the trend toward outsourcing. The idea is that the big 3 would be inclined to retain production of certain items if they were going to be on the hook for the employees anyway. (I'm sure that now that I've mentioned "Outsourcing" you'll all remember that particular buzzword.)

Jobs Bank became a purgatory for many employees approaching retirement age. As the big 3 trimmed jobs here in Michigan, some of the senior employees sat in the Jobs Bank until their 30 was achieved.

The last couple rounds of buyouts took a huge bite out of the number of employees in the Jobs Bank, so it's not nearly the festering sore that it was 2-3 years ago.