ZTR Needed?

[leoniru]

Hope I get lots of replies to this post so I can convince myself one way or the other whether or not I NEED a ZTR mower.

I mow about two+ acres (spread out over 4) of the most mower-Unfriendly 'lawn' (I use this term loosely) East of the Mississippi. Lots of undulations (constantly changing due to my logging/sawmill 'hobby'), mostly dandelion, sloping areas, and many obstacles (trees, berry patches, fenced-off areas, etc).

I've been getting by with two old 12 HP Kohler cub cadets(hydros.) for years now, but it takes me 6 or more hours --- depends on whether or not I collect/empty the clippings to use as garden mulch. Needless to say I am not very enthusiastic about this 'activity' especially when you add in the trimming and blade maintenance, etc.

My interest (desire?) for a ZTR has been awakened, but am I dreaming in thinking that a ZTR- any ZTR- could save me considerable time?

I'm wanting a 'Bota ZD real bad--even the 18 HP model-- but wonder if one of these would handle my needs. I must confess that I'm sort of predudiced towards Kubota as I own (almost) an L-48 TLB.
The Country Clippers also interest me(no diesel though) especially the flip-up deck (no more jacking up the cadets and laying on the ground skinning knuckles while removing blades!) and joystick control features (lots of overhanging fruit tree branches that love to swat faces and grab shirts).
Then again Woodmizer's parent company is offering an articulating deck machine (for moogoo bucks!) that is supposed to excel at uneven ground mowing.

A physically small unit would be preferred, but smaller seems to preclude commercial quality. A bagger option is a necessity.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of commentary in the various forums on the 'Botas or Country Clippers---seems like talk is skewed towards brands like Scag, Exmark, Gravely, Hustler, etc.(because they're better machines or more prevalent?) I must say that I've not really researched these brands much as I thought that the commercial quality models would be too big for my needs and their residential models would not stand up to my 'lawn's' challenging nature. The Country Clippers and 'Botas seem to fall in between somewhere with the 'Botas trending more towards the commercial end of things.

If a 6-10 K ZTR could handle my particular needs, but not one costing 3-5K, I would rather save-up for the more costly machine. I dread the thought of spending this amount of money only to find out that it wouldn't do any better of a job--or possibly even worse-- than the cadets, though most likely in a shorter time.

Unfortunately, I'm cursed to live in an area where there are few dealers nearby, and none that I like for any of these brands. (Bought my L-48 from Carvers before Kubota lowered the boom on internet sales).

Any comments especially from owners of the Kubotas and Country Clippers would be appreciated.

Thanx,
Jim S. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Jagmandave]

Based on my experience buying my ZTR to use on a similar situation, I think I would advise a ZTR with a front mounted mower rather than mid, all the usual advantages of any ZTR with the added capability of mowing under stuff better. Also supposed to ride better on uneven ground.........
Guaranteed to cut your mowing time in half!

 

[WVBill]

Jim,

I have a Country Clipper and like it very much - particularly the joystick and flip up deck.

I reviewed my purchase decision last year and described it in This Thread

 

[Mrwurm]

Well, the bad news is, if your lawn is not 'mower-friendly' as you described then you will not be able to use the high speed capability of the ZTR /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif I bought a ZTR to speed up my mowing task, but found that I could not go any faster than a lawn tractor due to the rough terrain that I mow. Yes, you'll still have improved manuverability, but that is only half the benefit of a ZTR.

The same lawn that used to bounce me off the seat of my garden tractor at 4 mph will launch me into the air at 9 mph on the ZTR /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[bczoom]

Jim,

VWBill did a nice comparison of ZTR's and a hands-on review of the JaZee in this thread.

For the cup holder on the Country Clipper, yes, a can wrapped in a koozie works well. Just watch the use of the emergency brake as the handle covers the cup holder when the brake is engaged.

I have the Country Clipper Charger.
My review and some notes:
- The cut is very nice, regardless of speed.
- The pivoting front axle helps on hills or in rough terrain.
- You'll really appreciate the joystick as it leaves a free hand to keep branches and stuff off you.
- When you first start mowing, the hydraulics are cold and control is a bit jumpy. I try to do an open area for a few minutes before I go to the tight areas that require a lot of turning.
- The flip up mower deck works well but is a bit heavy.
- As with any ZTR, you want to keep both tires turning when making a U-turn (one spinning forward, the other backwards) to avoid tearing up the grass. It'll take a couple minutes to master but it comes quickly.
- If you have hills, it's a bit tricky when mowing down the hill. If you're not going full speed or very slow, it requires a bit of adjustment to keep it straight. If you need to change directions when going down a hill you have to increase speed some to stop the inward tire from trying to lock up.
- Not sure about the Jazee's, but it's best to have a deck that is wider than the rear tires. It makes it easier to swing around trees and other obstacles.
- Unless the grass gets very high, I don't need a bagger. When I do need to collect clippings, I keep mowing inward and make windrows. I then collect with a pull-type bagger.
- It does a great job of collecting leaves in the fall. Mow inward and it'll shread and put into a windrow for easy collection.
- It can also be used for blowing stuff off driveways and other areas. Although a bit hard to keep a straight line when going backwards, it does a better job of blowing when backing up.
- If you get the Kohler engine, when you're done, let it idle for a minute or 2. If you shut down from high RPM's or don't let it idle for a minute, it'll backfire. Don't know why, but all my Kohler's do this.
- Haven't had to do a service on it yet but everything seems easily accessable.

Brian

 

[Dargo]

If you like Kubota and you have a fairly rough lawn, as far as I'm concerned, there is only one choice for you; a front mount Grasshopper. I own two front mount ZTR Grasshoppers, one gas and one diesel. They both have a 3 cyl. Kubota engine. As many have read, I actually had 5 different commercial ZTR mid mount mowers out at my house earlier this spring to try them out. The only mower that allowed me to even stay in the seat when trying to mow at any speed over what a lawn tractor would was the Ferris. That is because the Ferris had 4 wheel independent suspension.

I bought a Ferris. However, after the first mowing, it had to go. I have lots of obsticles to mow around, pine trees and other shrubs to mow under, and a lake to mow around. No mid mount ZTR mower will allow you to eliminate trimming around a lake (I put the Ferris in the lake 3 times trying /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif), and no mid mount ZTR will allow you to mow under trees with low limbs, unless you like limbs in the face, and no mid mount ZTR will handle inside corners like a front mount.

So, for what you describe, a front mount Grasshopper with a Kubota engine (either gas or diesel) would seem to fit your bill. Good luck!

 

[leoniru]

Thanx to all for your time and comments. The front mount deck makes a lot of sense when one thinks about all the low hanging growth I have to deal with, as well as the comment about an unfriendly lawn negating half the advantage of a ZTR (speed). I guess I was doing a bit of that good 'ol rationalization-thar'-thing in thinking (more like hoping) that a magical ZTR would miraculously even out my grounds.
Since making my initial post, I've gotten time to visit Scag's, Gravely's, and Ferris's respective websites. Of course they all claim to make the roughest, toughest, meanest, fastest, etc., etc., ZTR on the planet. I must say that Ferris's 4 wheel independent suspension is alluring in that it seems like it would make the best machine for evening-out my uneven grounds, however, 4 wheel IS isn't available on their smaller, less expensive machines. There is a Ferris dealer about 30 miles away, and I believe they also handle Grasshopper and Scag. I see a road trip in the near future, though like some of the posts in other threads mention the best way to demo would be on the property you plan to mow.
Any Ferris IS owners with rough property out there?

Jim S.

 

[theplayer]

"however, 4 wheel IS isn't available on their smaller, less expensive machines."

The ind. suspension is on the Ferrris 1500 with 44 deck..this is the smallest Ferris unit I believe.

 

[leoniru]

You are absolutely correct about the Ferris 1500's suspension---I got punch drunk reading through 4 different manufacturer's websites and offerings.

I'm beginning to see some solidity forming in the ZTR mush in my head. I just got off of Walker's website and really liked what I saw, especially the Kubota powered unit, and the compact appearance with the integral grass collection system.
I'm pretty much convinced at this time that a front mount deck unit is the best for my application considering it's longer under branch/inside corner reach and smoother ride/better handling/traction.
What I didn't like was Walker's lack of description regarding their deck construction-- they merely say it's made of 11 ga. steel. No mention whatsoever about the spindle construction or blade tip speed. Other makers spend a considerable amount of time belaboring such things--e.g. Scag and Grasshopper. What gives? Is this important stuff or not?
Also saw a few for auction on ebay, and one had the hydraulic motors replaced at less than 2,000 hrs.(and the machine did NOT look beat) while nearly all had their powerplants either replaced or rebuilt with under 2,000 hrs. of use.
Perhaps they were abused, but how does one know if it isn't a case of poor engineering in matching up designs and powerplants, hydraulics, etc.? OR is 2,000 hrs. about average life expectancy for an air-cooled engine in this type of application? I tend to think not from my own experience (mostly Kohler) with mid to large size air-cooled power plants.
Can anyone out there comment about their personal experience or at least known-for-sure facts regarding Walker ZTR reliability?

Jim S.

P.S. I'm waiting to here from Walker on where my closest dealer is.

 

[Spiffy]

I don't have any first hand on the Walker brand, but may be able to help some of your questions:

"Proper design" will make up for some difference in thickness. I'm glad I got 7 gage with the Snapper, but mostly because of the abuse it gets; I think a couple other commercial brands have 11 gage fabricated decks and don't see complaints. All other things coming out ahead, I wouldn't worry too much about it, but certainly would prefer thicker if you expect some abuse. All the commercial machines seem to be in the same tip speed ball bark, but this won't matter much anway unless you are looking for mowing at top speeds or expecting the best possible manicure [both of which are also affected by blade and deck design to some extent].

When looking at used commercial machines online; its impossible to imagine the environment they came from. An owner operatored one in commercial use may have been ran and maintained perfectly or even then any combination. One that's been operated mostly by uninterested employees may be beat physically as well as over-ran on maintenance. A 5 acre homeowner may have babied it, or kept it clean, but ran it hard once a week, forgetting it and it's maintenance between [much worse IMHO than commercial operation and it's things pictures just don't show].

The thing about engines is many air-cooled units need to run full throttle to obtain proper cooling, a fact people often forget. Also, IMHO, most air cooled gas engines aren't made for over 2000 hours, but this still equates to a 20year machine if you're doing around 5 acres for 6 months.

The bearings on most commercial machines are sized to handle quite some abuse; but if you are really concerned, the Timkin Tapered Roller will take more abuse in random directions than ball bearings. I'm always partial to greasable bearings, but if you don't always remember zerks, the sealed will likely win.

I like the frontmounts, but am pleased with the midmount, however, your description seems to scream frontmount.

Have fun!

 

[Dargo]

I agree with Spiffy. I do like mid mount ZTR's, and even bought one for a week, but they just won't work for me. It sure sounds like you are in a similar situation. Depending on your situation, a front mount may be really needed, or not needed at all over a mid mount.

I just mowed with my front mount Grasshopper on the side of a hill that my tractor was having a hard time getting up in 4X4. As a matter of fact, the reason I used the Grasshopper was because my tractor had to spin to dig in to get enough traction even with the differential locked and in 4X4. I could back up it no problem with the Grasshopper, and even mow across no problem. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif The new DuraMax decks on the Grasshoppers are 7 gauge over 10 gauge with even more reinforcements. Heck, I've never managed to hurt the deck on the 5 year old one I have and it isn't built nearly as strong. In the commercial series I would look more at the spindles and the size of the wheel motors, and go with a liquid cooled gas unit or diesel. You were talking about replacement wheel motors and engines at 2000 hours. The G2 hydraulic system on the Grasshopper mowers doesn't even recommend a fluid and filter change until 1000 hours the first time, and every 1000 hours afterwards. Our highway department went 5000 hours on one of theirs before they changed the fluid and filter for the first time. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Also, the drive motors were 70% larger than those on the 28hp Ferris and Exmarks. I say that because I haven't heard of drive motor problems on the Ferris or Exmarks, so with 70% larger capacity motors I don't plan on having to change them ever.

Different situations require different mowers. There is no doubt that the mid mounts are every bit as tough and as fast, they just can't do what I particularly need. It sounds like your situation is similar and you are going to be dissatisfied with anything but a front mount.

 

[leoniru]

Thanks Spiffy and Dargo.
Now, Dargo. I just returned from a multibrand dealer who's been in business for over 30 years--so I guess he must be doing something right. I had a very comfortable time during my visit, i.e. everyone friendly, helpful and polite. The owner/salesman spent about an hour and a half with me answering all the questions I could put to him to my satisfaction. I had an oportunity to see their service and prep area and even got a demo ride (my first on a ZTR ever) on a front mount air-cooled 27 hp. Kohler Grasshopper with 61" deck that had the electric height and fold setup. Side discharge. Needless to say I was very impressed even though the mowing tract is far, far more tame than where I plan on using the machine.
I really would like to see/touch/try a Walker before spending this amount of money, but Walker has not as yet replied to my request for my nearest dealer.
This dealer, said that Walker seemd to be much more popular in the urban areas where bagging is mandatory. Said a few of the fellows he knew that had them were disatisfied primarily with their nonbagging (mulching or discharge) performance. Also said he thought they were kinda tough to work on as things were stuffed together to the max, but he did say they were a good machine.
I ended up leaving with a price of $11K for the front deck kubota diesel with 52" side discharge deck, and $9.5 K for an air-cooled 27 hp. Kohler.
Just missed out (isn't that the way it always is?) on a 721D front mount with grass collection system and 750 total hrs. for $4,995.00. Even though it was 14 or so years old, it looked right. I think I'd have jumped on it in a heartbeat had it not been sold already!
Do you (or anyone else) have any idea if this dealer's pricing is in the right ballpark so to speak?
I don't believe there are any other Grasshopper dealers within a reasonable drive from me, so I won't likely be able to 'shop around' on this particular model.
This dealer also sells Ferris, Scag, Bulldog, Dixon, and Ventrac. Had Country Clipper--dropped the line.
I'm probably looking at 'too much mower' for my property, but it always seems that no one manufacturer ever makes EXACTLY what I need. In my case, I think that if you could downsize the 21 hp. Kubota front deck Grasshopper by 30% or so---WITHOUT a tradeoff in build quality or materials-- it would be ideal for someone like me.
If anyone has any current Grasshopper pricing info I sure would appreciate it.

Thanx,

Jim S.

 

[bczoom]

Jim,

Is the Oneida you live in the one in Butler or Schuylkill county?

If Butler, call Smardt Equipment in Zelienople (724) 452-8540 and ask for Kevin. They're the local Kubota dealer and also have Walkers. They have a New Holland store in Portersville but don't know if they have mowers over there.

Heck, if you're in Butler, come over to my place if you want to try the Country Clipper.

Brian

 

[leoniru]

Brian(bczoom);

I'm in Schuykill Co. unfortunately, and I'm honored by your invitation to try your 'Clipper out.
Thanks, but it's a ride for me, AND I just gave my best sales pitch to the wife about the new diesel-powered Grasshopper---I'll let you guess what she said. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

JIm S.

 

[bczoom]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Brian(bczoom);

I'm in Schuykill Co. unfortunately, and I'm honored by your invitation to try your 'Clipper out.
Thanks, but it's a ride for me, AND I just gave my best sales pitch to the wife about the new diesel-powered Grasshopper---I'll let you guess what she said. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

JIm S. )</font>

Oh well (on both points). /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I do the same sales pitch with the CFO. Aim real high and then settle/agree on what I really needed in the first place.

 

[leoniru]

Uh huh. That's the way I figure also. A thumb's down for an $11K expenditure just might open a door for something in the $6k or so area. I'll have to review her 'honey-do' list and try for some extra credit I guess.
Darn it though, that 'Hopper was sweet to play with.

JIm S.

 

[Dargo]

It does sound like you just missed a deal on the used Hopper. I was at an auction last year where our highway department, Holiday World (a local theme park), and our school corp. was unloading a few Hoppers. I was shocked to see some that were beat to death, and had over 6000 hours on them, were still bringing around 5k! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Everybody on here probably thinks I'm nuts after I tried my best to buy a 2nd ZTR earlier this spring for less money. To make a long story short, I did buy a Ferris ZTR (very nice by the way - the suspension is absolutely awesome) but after a week I traded it for a 2nd Grasshopper. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I only have about 600 hours on my diesel Hopper, and it still looks like new. So far, I've only bought 1 or 2 sets of blades, oil and filters for it. I don't get attached to any equipment, and am widely known to bash something I own (verbally) if it doesn't perform up to what I expect. However, I have to admit that I'm sold of these Grasshoppers. Now I only wish I would have bought another diesel rather than the 3 cylinder (Kubota) liquid cooled gas model. Hey, wanna like new gas powered Hopper with only 10 hours?! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif If you haven't listened to one, try the 3 cylinder Kubota gas model at your dealer. It is positively the smoothest engine I've ever heard on any mower; period. My only objection is that it drinks almost twice as much as the diesel. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Unless you are going to mow professionally and trailer your mower a lot, I see no value in the power lift deck on the Grasshopper. I passed on that option both times I bought a new Hopper. I paid under 10k for the 3 cyl. gas Hopper with a 61" DuraMax deck. After I heard the Kubota gas engine, I just couldn't go with any other gas model they had. A friend has a Mazda Miata, and my new Hopper engine sounds just like it. I would think you could get an air cooled gas powered front mount Hopper for around 8k.

But, hey, what do I know?! I bought a really nice Ferris and only kept it for a week. Then I traded it on a nice Hopper. Now I probably will trade my Hopper next year on a 928 diesel Hopper with a 72" DuraMax deck. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I sound a bit too confused. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[leoniru]

Dargo;
Are you kidding about your gas 'Bota 'Hopper maybe being for sale?
If not, I'm quite interested even though it's gas. It is liquid-cooled though, isn't it?
Let me know ---you can PM me if you want.

Jim S.