Ym2000 piston help

/ Ym2000 piston help #1  

bridgeport13b

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
35
Tractor
Yanmar ym2000
Hi so I have a 2tr20 engine with 88mm pistons and I was wondering if I should get rotating assembly balanced for the 90mm pistons used in the 2tr20a? My engine suffered from a rod knock, so I bought new pistons and bearings and a used replacement connecting rod. I am also boring out stock 88mm bore sleeves for 90mm pistons. I just don稚 Edmonton want to put engine back in and find out that the engine is way out of balance with new pistons. Also is the crank, front pulley, and flywheel balanced togething? are the rods and pistons weight matched so that they cancel each other out?
Thanks
Richard
 
/ Ym2000 piston help #2  
Just thinking theory here - the crank throws are 180 degrees apart. I expect it will balance the same as before so long as the big end of the new rod matches the remaining rod. So no need to take in the crank.

A balance shop might want to match the rods and pistons into perfect twins. That should be pretty simple.

Anybody know if this will make any practical difference?
 
/ Ym2000 piston help
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Just thinking theory here - the crank throws are 180 degrees apart. I expect it will balance the same as before so long as the big end of the new rod matches the remaining rod. So no need to take in the crank.

A balance shop might want to match the rods and pistons into perfect twins. That should be pretty simple.

Anybody know if this will make any practical difference?

That痴 what I figured but I wasn稚 for sure, I know on in-line 4 cylinders they make rods and pistons same weight so that they cancel each other out. I guess I wanted to make sure there was not anything else that would cause issues.
 
/ Ym2000 piston help #5  
Hi so I have a 2tr20 engine with 88mm pistons and I was wondering if I should get rotating assembly balanced for the 90mm pistons used in the 2tr20a? My engine suffered from a rod knock, so I bought new pistons and bearings and a used replacement connecting rod. I am also boring out stock 88mm bore sleeves for 90mm pistons. I just don稚 Edmonton want to put engine back in and find out that the engine is way out of balance with new pistons. Also is the crank, front pulley, and flywheel balanced togething? are the rods and pistons weight matched so that they cancel each other out?
Thanks
Richard

The rods and pistons should be balanced for your crankshaft. Since you went up in size, even though it wasn't a huge jump, I am not sure what the calculation should be for that, but they should be balanced. I know that these little engines aren't running 5,000 rpm or higher but still would be a good idea. Hate to have you put it back in and have an oh S*** factor come into play. I just know from past experience on gas burners that I had to have pistons and rods balanced with my crank when I bored out the block, again these were high running RPM engines too and I bored more than 2mm. Maybe someone else can chime in on this. rScotty I think was an actual diesel mechanic, maybe he can give some light on the subject.
 
/ Ym2000 piston help #6  
Hot-rodders have been boring and using oversized pistons and rings for decades with no effect on balance.
 
/ Ym2000 piston help #7  
I've Bored and use over sized pistons on many gas engines 4-6-8Cyl. And a 6 2cycle motor. And only oversized 1 of the cylinders for that matter. Worked in a Eng. machine shop when I was 18. I know for a fact my, And do mean BA. Mec. 6Cyl. outboard was with no effect on balance. Bought it with a bullet hole in it. Yup!! Replaced the head and ran it for Yrs.. 2 Pistons were damaged we new of. Which one finally broke yrs. later. Used a 175 block bored 60mm over after that. With fiberglass valves. Kept the 150 cowl and man did it hurt some feelings. Like I said I was well versed on 2cycles...Which I owned boats before that one also. Mec #1 on the water.............LOL...
 
/ Ym2000 piston help
  • Thread Starter
#8  
I decided to take engine to machine shop for boring the cylinder for new pistons anyways he said that on in-line type engines that they are internally balanced and that the crank, flywheel and harmonic balances are balanced together and the rods and pistons are weight match to each other and cancel each other out when they run. So basically as long as pistons and rods match in weight they are balanced as long as crank, flywheel and harmonic balanced haven稚 been changed.
 
/ Ym2000 piston help #9  
I decided to take engine to machine shop for boring the cylinder for new pistons anyways he said that on in-line type engines that they are internally balanced and that the crank, flywheel and harmonic balances are balanced together and the rods and pistons are weight match to each other and cancel each other out when they run. So basically as long as pistons and rods match in weight they are balanced as long as crank, flywheel and harmonic balanced haven稚 been changed.

Sounds like you are good to go then. Let us know how it performs after you get it all put back together!
 
/ Ym2000 piston help #10  
I decided to take engine to machine shop for boring the cylinder for new pistons anyways he said that on in-line type engines that they are internally balanced and that the crank, flywheel and harmonic balances are balanced together and the rods and pistons are weight match to each other and cancel each other out when they run. So basically as long as pistons and rods match in weight they are balanced as long as crank, flywheel and harmonic balanced haven稚 been changed.

That's right. As a mechanic about all you can do is match the weights of the reciprocating parts - the pistons & rods - so that both pistons are equal and also that both rods have the same weight.

There are other types of balance as well and they are fun to think about. For example there is a rocking couple between the front and rear cyiinders which is minimized if both cylinders have about the same compression, weight of parts, and make the same power.
And there is also a target percentage balance (never 100% & sometimes much less) between the reciprocating parts and the rotating parts that is RPM dependent....in fact, that is why some crankshaftshafts have oddly shaped lobes. But as a mechanic you really can't do much to affect those types of balance except to match the weights just as your machine shop said.

Most small Yanmars don't have a harmonic balancer, and the flywheel + clutch assembly should be symmetrical around the rotational axis, so those parts are automatically in balance.

It sounds like you are on the right track.
rScotty
 
/ Ym2000 piston help #11  
You stated in the#1 post that your replacing both pistons. So being just a 2 Cyl. motor and doing both the same You don't have anything to worry about. You can have the shop check the rod for weight ,Length Etc.. Which length is your biggest concern.
There is so many T2R20 motors out there I wouldn't worry much of getting the wrong Rod. And as many motors Hoye has sold parts for rebuilding a T2R20 they would know without a doubt your need both rods from a motor and they need to precisely the same. Your Good!! and if there was a snafu Hoye would of let you known about it I'm sure... It would be known about on here. Now if it was a Wankel motor-Mazda or some crazy setup then you maybe talking about being precise... The Wankel motor, Rotary was a Cool setup which I owned a RX7 for Yrs. one of the first models that was Carbureted. The wifey confiscated that car but had to give it up when we started having kids..
 
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/ Ym2000 piston help #12  
There are other types of balance as well and they are fun to think about. For example there is a rocking couple between the front and rear cylinders which is minimized if both cylinders have about the same compression, weight of parts, and make the same power.
Here's a brain teaser for you: These Yanmar 2 cylinders are uneven-firing. They fire 180 degrees apart then nothing for another 540 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Seems like that would have some impact on making that 'rocking couple' uneven, and even harder to design for in a broad-rpm engine.

I'll bet somebody in Yanmar gave up doing calculations at some point and said 'ok enough theory just make the lower end massive'. :)
 
/ Ym2000 piston help #13  
Here's a brain teaser for you: These Yanmar 2 cylinders are uneven-firing. They fire 180 degrees apart then nothing for another 540 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Seems like that would have some impact on making that 'rocking couple' uneven, and even harder to design for in a broad-rpm engine.

I'll bet somebody in Yanmar gave up doing calculations at some point and said 'ok enough theory just make the lower end massive'. :)

California, that's funny! Thanks for the chuckle. I confess I've not looked into the firing vs crank inertia on my Yanmar. Congratulations to you for doing so. But I kinda doubt if they just "gave up" doing calculations! :) Those are pretty easy to do and have been a basic & well understood part of engine design for a long time.

As my friend Charlie says, "Simple dimple just like beer & apple pie!" *
*(BTW, Charlie is a kindergarden teacher, author, & beer brewer who is also a nuclear engineer - when he says something is "simple" my mental alarm bells go into immediate frantic hyperdrive .... )

The geometry of the crank and cam lobes can be changed easy enough on paper and during development to put the firing in any imaginable relationship to the rotating masses. After that, it's just a matter of the designer running the numbers, picking one set of workable answers, and then getting prepared for endless design meetings if what emerges is an unusual or oddball solution......
But that's how progress is made.

I agree with what you say. It does seem making the lower end more massive would always be a valid solution. That's a good brain-teasing thought experiment because if you make the lower end rotating parts massive enough, then you should be able to cause both the reciprocating weight and the firing impulses to become relatively insignificant in comparison to the rotating mass. Changing RPM becomes a problem.....But now that I think on it, lots of great big early engines were built in exactly that manner. It wouldn't surprise me if big ocean-going ship engines still were. Doing that does require an equally massive engine block of course. That may not be problem in a cargo ship where you are looking for ballast anyway.

But if you decide to go with that solution on a lightweight modern tractor, better invite the bean counters to the design meetings.
If the financial & legal guys are going to go ballistic you sure wouldn't want anyone to miss the fun...

Yes, Wankels are cool.
Enjoy!
rScotty
- who is prepared to swear on a stack of Marvel Comics that I certainly never, ever presented a goofball design just to watch the fireworks.
 
/ Ym2000 piston help #14  
Here's a brain teaser for you: These Yanmar 2 cylinders are uneven-firing. They fire 180 degrees apart then nothing for another 540 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Seems like that would have some impact on making that 'rocking couple' uneven, and even harder to design for in a broad-rpm engine.

I'll bet somebody in Yanmar gave up doing calculations at some point and said 'ok enough theory just make the lower end massive'. :)

This made me laugh too! :laughing:
 

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