MossRoad
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Yesterday. Would you buy and EV?
- Thread starter hiddentacocatneddih
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deserteagle71
Veteran Member
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- northern Nevada
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^ This.
Of course climate change is real. Been going on for the history of our earth. I live in Nevada - driest state in the nation. It is mostly desert scrubland. But 10,000 years ago most of Nevada was under a vast lake. Even today people find sea shells, mollusk and fish fossils, etc. all over Nevada. In the intervening years the climate keep getting drier, most of the water evaporated and so now we have desert. So how much of that climate change can be attributed to the growing population of humankind? Except for the last 200 years or so, very few people lived in north America and I'm sure they had very little to do with ancient Lake Lahontan drying up.
MossRoad
Super Moderator
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- South Bend, Indiana (near)
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- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
You got 7.5 billion people burning stuff 24/7/365. 100 years ago, it was 1.8 billion people. It can’t be sustained.
2manyrocks
Super Member
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- Jul 28, 2007
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- 8,571
Not at current gas prices.
Vigo327
Platinum Member
Ok, admittedly i have not read this 35 page thread yet and im just responding to the original prompt. Maybe some of this has been said.
But I'm an ASE Master Tech (with an additional hybrid-specific ase certification) who also has a strong interest in electric propulsion, has owned 5 hybrids, taken apart hybrid battery packs, powers his house on batteries when the sun isn't shining, and as an automotive instructor is about to start developing an EV/Hybrid specific curriculum for the community college i teach at.. blah blah blah i know stuff about high voltage propulsion.
I think EV tractors can/will penetrate easily into the SCUT/CUT markets because there's relatively short 'duty cycles' and less PTO use in those segments vs actual farming/agriculture production work. You basically don't need as much 'range'.
They certainly CAN perform in the other segments, but unless the tractors are built with some eye towards 'modular' or universal battery placement, wiring, controls, etc, they will be 'short timers' in tractor terms because batteries WILL degrade and cannot exactly be 'rebuilt' (the packs can, but not the cells themselves), and once technology inevitably marches on and those particular cells go out of production, unless it is easily replaced with whatever the currently available battery tech is, that whole tractor will be impractical to use for the work it was designed to do because it will be very difficult to repair it back to its original function without being able to duplicate the original battery architecture. They'll be 'orphans' due to lack of parts availability far sooner than we're used to.
I still own blue ryobi 18v tools, for example. That's only possible because Ryobi has made an unusual effort to stick to an 'old' battery form factor so that new batteries are backwards compatible with old tools. If tractor manufacturers don't do that, the tractors will be 'disposable' after the original batteries' cycle life is expended.
One thing i think would be very interesting but i dont know whether anyone's working on it, is hybrid tractors with batteries AND internal combustion engines. These would function like PHEVs or 'range extended EVs' do in the car world. They could be used purely on battery for as long as the batteries last, and then the combustion engine would kick in to serve as generator. They could also be made to have say 100hp on battery, but 150hp on battery+engine. They could also have a 'hold charge' mode like many hybrid cars do, where the engine runs to keep the battery full so you can switch to battery-only operation later in the day etc. You get around the 'range' restriction of batteries, AND gain a ton of efficiency vs pure ICE construction.
Another thing about using an engine as a generator instead of a 'traction engine' is that the engine doesn't have to be able to operate over wide range of speed and load, so it can be optimized for great power and efficiency within a narrower window. For example, Mazda hasn't been able to get their rotary engine to hit emissions targets or achieve good efficiency or durability as a traction engine but they CAN make it clean and efficient and long-lasting as a generator running in a narrow rpm and load range. So the engines used wouldn't need to be nearly as large as current ones but may still be able to provide the same power over time at greater efficiency.
And hybrids don't become as impractical to use as their batteries fade. For example, the 2007 Prius i used to own is now at 371k miles on its original battery pack, and it is still a totally usable car that just gets worse fuel economy than it used to because the gas engine runs more. But it will technically do all the same things it used to do, it just uses more fuel doing it, but still less than a non-hybrid equivalent from 2007.
But I'm an ASE Master Tech (with an additional hybrid-specific ase certification) who also has a strong interest in electric propulsion, has owned 5 hybrids, taken apart hybrid battery packs, powers his house on batteries when the sun isn't shining, and as an automotive instructor is about to start developing an EV/Hybrid specific curriculum for the community college i teach at.. blah blah blah i know stuff about high voltage propulsion.
I think EV tractors can/will penetrate easily into the SCUT/CUT markets because there's relatively short 'duty cycles' and less PTO use in those segments vs actual farming/agriculture production work. You basically don't need as much 'range'.
They certainly CAN perform in the other segments, but unless the tractors are built with some eye towards 'modular' or universal battery placement, wiring, controls, etc, they will be 'short timers' in tractor terms because batteries WILL degrade and cannot exactly be 'rebuilt' (the packs can, but not the cells themselves), and once technology inevitably marches on and those particular cells go out of production, unless it is easily replaced with whatever the currently available battery tech is, that whole tractor will be impractical to use for the work it was designed to do because it will be very difficult to repair it back to its original function without being able to duplicate the original battery architecture. They'll be 'orphans' due to lack of parts availability far sooner than we're used to.
I still own blue ryobi 18v tools, for example. That's only possible because Ryobi has made an unusual effort to stick to an 'old' battery form factor so that new batteries are backwards compatible with old tools. If tractor manufacturers don't do that, the tractors will be 'disposable' after the original batteries' cycle life is expended.
One thing i think would be very interesting but i dont know whether anyone's working on it, is hybrid tractors with batteries AND internal combustion engines. These would function like PHEVs or 'range extended EVs' do in the car world. They could be used purely on battery for as long as the batteries last, and then the combustion engine would kick in to serve as generator. They could also be made to have say 100hp on battery, but 150hp on battery+engine. They could also have a 'hold charge' mode like many hybrid cars do, where the engine runs to keep the battery full so you can switch to battery-only operation later in the day etc. You get around the 'range' restriction of batteries, AND gain a ton of efficiency vs pure ICE construction.
Another thing about using an engine as a generator instead of a 'traction engine' is that the engine doesn't have to be able to operate over wide range of speed and load, so it can be optimized for great power and efficiency within a narrower window. For example, Mazda hasn't been able to get their rotary engine to hit emissions targets or achieve good efficiency or durability as a traction engine but they CAN make it clean and efficient and long-lasting as a generator running in a narrow rpm and load range. So the engines used wouldn't need to be nearly as large as current ones but may still be able to provide the same power over time at greater efficiency.
And hybrids don't become as impractical to use as their batteries fade. For example, the 2007 Prius i used to own is now at 371k miles on its original battery pack, and it is still a totally usable car that just gets worse fuel economy than it used to because the gas engine runs more. But it will technically do all the same things it used to do, it just uses more fuel doing it, but still less than a non-hybrid equivalent from 2007.
Chewwy
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Interesting insight into EVs actually towing something.
ijr.com
Journalists Tow Camper Behind Electric Truck, End in Stunning Failure When They Only Make it 85 Miles
Editor’s Note: Our readers responded strongly to this story when it originally ran; we’re reposting it here in case you
ijr.com
Installed my 15KW system on the shop roof.
Shop roof is pretty simple long lasting painted R-Panel.
Panel life probably closely aligns with that shop roof life.
CloverKnollFarms
Elite Member
So, just don’t use the truck, as a truck, and you’ll be fine. 86 miles, 100%-5%? What a jokeInteresting insight into EVs actually towing something.
Journalists Tow Camper Behind Electric Truck, End in Stunning Failure When They Only Make it 85 Miles
Editor’s Note: Our readers responded strongly to this story when it originally ran; we’re reposting it here in case you
Our nearest charging station is 35 miles away. We have a number of lakes and parks near us, but you cannot charge there. You have to go 35 miles out of your way to do so.
Vigo327
Platinum Member
That's a perfect example of why EV tractors are harder than EV cars. Most cars only take 20hp to go down the road at 60-70mph, which means they're operating at something like 10% of their rated power (or WAY LESS since so many cars have 300-400hp now) most of the time. Tractors tend to operate under much heavier load more of the time. So when we say gas cars have 300-500mile range, that's 300-500 mile range at 10% load! If you use 150 hp continuously on a 200hp car, all of a sudden that 500 mile range becomes 120 miles. The same thing happens with batteries, but people are unfairly negative towards battery vehicles about it when gas cars do basically the same thing.
For example, a friend and I took a road trip recently where we did a lot of 90-95mph in a 2 vehicle convoy. His vehicle was a 5.7L gas ram. At that speed he got <11mpg. His range at that point was a bit over 200 miles on a full tank. It would be closer to 500 miles if going 60-65mph. That is NO DIFFERENT than a truck with a 230 mile range dropping to 86 miles range when being worked hard. The only difference is how easy it is to 'refuel'.
But it's still a good example of why it would take a hell of a lot of batteries to make it through a day on an electric tractor that actually worked all day.
For example, a friend and I took a road trip recently where we did a lot of 90-95mph in a 2 vehicle convoy. His vehicle was a 5.7L gas ram. At that speed he got <11mpg. His range at that point was a bit over 200 miles on a full tank. It would be closer to 500 miles if going 60-65mph. That is NO DIFFERENT than a truck with a 230 mile range dropping to 86 miles range when being worked hard. The only difference is how easy it is to 'refuel'.
But it's still a good example of why it would take a hell of a lot of batteries to make it through a day on an electric tractor that actually worked all day.
ultrarunner
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I was out and my neighbor stopped to let me know he is selling his Dodge 2500 extended quad cab diesel 4wd.
I thought I didn't hear right as he said it's the best vehicle he had ever owned to pull his 12k trailer up and down California for business.
Said the cost now no longer makes it attractive and will concentrate on a bigger online presence and ship all merchandise instead of delivering.
Looking for a people mover in the electric family since they produce excess solar...
I thought I didn't hear right as he said it's the best vehicle he had ever owned to pull his 12k trailer up and down California for business.
Said the cost now no longer makes it attractive and will concentrate on a bigger online presence and ship all merchandise instead of delivering.
Looking for a people mover in the electric family since they produce excess solar...
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