Yanmar & ROPS

[js5020]

I have had an interest in selling/servicing these grey machines, but the issue of liability for selling a non US spec machine comes up. My question if anyone is willing, what if any liability do you actually incurr by selling these non US spec machines? And how would one protect himself from such liability,if there is liabilty? I live in a rural area and most of the properties are larger than 1 acre and income is moderate, I know myself I would like to have another machine but the prices ouch!! not gonna spend 13-17000 just so I can get the grass mowed in half the time, a grey machine however would be justifiable to me, and I believe many in my area. Just always wondered if the risk is worth selling them?

 

[cfoxmd]

Of course there is some liability for selling something that doesn't care the mandated safety equipment. That is why the manufacturer is not supporting the models in the US. The question is how much liability is there? You aren't the manufacturer, but if the manufacturer can dodge the lawsuit--you as the dealer are next. If you want to do it, set up a Limited Liability Corportation (LLC) and have no assets in the corportation. Separate the corportations finances from yours and have corportation meetings (sounds silly, but you sit down and write up the decisions you have made at least once a year and sign and have your wife witness it). If you don't mix corporate money with your own (i.e. you pay yourself a salary and/or bonuses when you have profits-- and make loans from yourself to yourself personally to the corportation (need not be interest bearing) when the corportation needs cash to buy something, then the corporation is a separate legal entity and the corporate veil is difficult to breach (i.e. liability does not pass to you directly). So a lawsuit comes and if you lose there are no assets of the corporation (because all of the tools, building, etc. is not owned by the corportation but by you). Hard to say the owner of a building is responsible for what his tenant does (as long as it is legal).

Yes, it does take some effort so that you can sleep (and a tax return for your corportation--which actually carries some benefits). But after the set up, it can be done in 4-8 hours/year.

Strictly speaking, you have to act like a corporation with separate bank accounts and tax returns, If you do this and keep no real assets in the corportation, if a lawsuit comes, you can quietly close down and start up under a new name. You pay all your creditors other than any judgement and set up a new LLC. If you do all this, your stockholders (i.e. you) cannot be held responsible for your corporations liaibility. This costs $1500 to set up the first time and then some paper work. Next time (if there is a next time) you can file all the papers yourself for $50.

 

[mark777]

I feel very sad that the liability issues and legal loop holes that we must jump thru make our efforts almost intangible. Like many, I am capable and confident that I could build and install a ROPS system that may save someone's life. And add structural integrity and compliment the tractors appearance.

What I am trying to do, in some small way, is to offer a product that is built in THIS country that we really need. My intentions are not to employ hundreds and make millions, but just to share what I know and contribute to tractor owners and operators.

It would be nice if I could make it happen. Thank you for your responses. Regards, Mark

 

[Soundguy]

I've not seen the aftermarket rops you speak of.. but can tell you.. that I've seen rops retrofits.. certified as well.. that leave me thinking that I'm gonna jump off that tractor if it rolls.

For instance. the ford N, NAA, and hundred series.. all with round axles. The had a 4 bolt pattern/ears in the xales mid way, with top and bottom flats for mounting the fenders. The axle trumbets are then bolted to the diffy.

The certified rops retrofit is a swept back rops that attaches with those same 8 botls that holds the fenders on.. it has a top and bottom platem, and sandwhiches the axle.

Many feel the axle trumpets won't hold up. I think they would.. they are beefier than many new tractor axle trumpets.. though the cast iron / metalurgy is 50 years old.. However I think the 4 ears/molded spots the rops bolts thru is iffy.

Again.. opinion only.. and I've seen rolled fords with rops, and nothing bad happened.. always sticks in your mind though.

The whole liability issue that everyone else points out is the only thing that would make me shy away from building them.

On the other hand.. a good beefy roll bar / sun shade seems pretty leagal, if you specifically tell them that it isn't a certified rops structure.. etc.

good luck

Soundguy

 

[jmf7112001]

I've also tried to send you a email. Its keeps coming back. Please send me a email so I can reply to you joe@bamatractorman.com

 

[YanmarFever]

Me tooooo !!
/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Quit polishing that 205 & fix your mail dude ! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[mark777]

Ernie, again I apologize. Your PM is blocked and I don't know your email. I will sort out my email problem but it has been the same for nearly eight years. Mark

 

[jdmar]

Mark,

Cfoxmd gives you good infor re: an LLC. The issue he describes is "co-mingling of funds." That occurs when you mix "your" money with "your LLC" money. Seems like a small issue but legally I am told it makes a huge differrence.

So if your LLC want to buy a container of tractors and has no money of its own...the LLC "borrows" the money from you. Write that aggreement on paper and sign it with some tiny loan rate. Then, when you sell your tractors you pay back the "loan" you made to yourself and also give a profit to yourself as a salary/bonus for all your good work.

That technique helps protect you from personal liability (i.e loss of house/investments/property). However, in this world it is likely unsafe legally to make a ROPS. Sad but true. We know you and your dedication to quality and integrity. But sadly somone else out there would sue. And all you want to do is help....sad sometimes. Sorry I was starting to get philosophical.

That said. I would trust your work and would happily consider a "M777 Light Bar" for my 1500!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Peter

 

[normde2001]

Does anyone know if there is a legal/liability difference between putting a ROPS on a compact tractor, and building/selling a dune buggy with a rollbar, which I know occurs by the thousands, especially in Florida? I imagine a dune buggy weighs 1,500-2,000#, about the same as a CUT. I believe if I wanted to build them, I would call it a lightbar/canopy frame and test the prototype on a sacrificial parts tractor by tipping it over. It's not as if you have to drop it from a great height on its top.

 

[Soundguy]

I'm sure that's what alot of people do.. sell them as roll bars.. or light bars.

My step brother used to have a truck, and he took it to a custom shop and had a nice custom roll bar added, and some KC lamps on it. The invoice called it a lightbar... not a rollbar.. I'm sure it was to dodge liability issues.

Soundguy