XR4150H Engine Failure

[TexasRust]

There is a 90 day warranty on either the short block or a complete engine. If they would have given a couple of years of warranty on the full engine, it might have been worth the extra money.

 

[TimberFarm]

90 days? That's it?
Better run the heck out of it to make sure it is put back together correctly.

 

[TexasRust]

You don’t get much in trade on a tractor that needs an engine overhaul. I can rebuild this engine 4 times for what it will cost me to buy a new MT357H. Sure, I would get a 6 year warranty, but that is about 2500 hours at my current usage rate, a bit more than twice my current number of hours.

My advice, in hind sight, is to put as many hours on your new tractor as fast as you can. If there is going to be an early life failure, you want is to happen while the tractor is still under warranty. At 1140 hours, my engine was still in its infancy.

 

[TexasRust]

UPDATE Time

The dealer finished putting the engine back together with the new short block, but they had trouble getting it to run. Multiple fuel injector related error codes. Fuel return test found the injector for cylinder #3 filled a pint bottle in about 30 seconds.

When I gave them the tractor, there were no error codes, but cylinder #3 was clean. So that injector was apparently leaking and that’s why the cylinder was clean. However, the engine idled smoothly and there were no error codes.

They decided to take a used injector from a warranty return engine to save me some money. I would have rather replaced all three, even though they’re $620 each from LS, but I didn’t feel like I should bring it up at the time since they weren’t charging me for the injector.

They had me pickup the tractor on 3/21, a rainy miserable day. Had to crank it a bit to get it to start and the idle was a bit rough, but I convinced myself that I was just being picky. With the rain running down my neck, I loaded it and took it home.

Next morning, it still idled rough. Warmed it up and started running it up a hill, but it really bogged down. Now with it warmed up, the rough idle was still present and it chug-chugged when I advanced the throttle. It sounds like a cylinder isn’t firing right. Shortly after, I start getting injector related error codes and it stalls. I was fortunate enough to have it re-start and run back onto the trailer. Obviously, I took it back on 3/22. I’ve kicking myself ever since for picking it up and not paying enough attention to how it sounded in the first place.

The dealer and I settle on rebuilding the injectors from cylinders #1 and #2. Unfortunately, nobody seems to be able to get the parts to rebuild these Delphi #28359042 injectors. So they get new ones from LS and install them. I go to get the tractor yesterday, 4/20, yes almost a month to the day. The idle is still rough, the rain is again running down the back of my neck, but I’m determined to check it out thoroughly before I take it back. It doesn’t bog down like before and I didn’t get any error codes in the 30 minutes that I ran it around there lot. Unfortunately, the idle is rough and still chug-chugs when the throttle is advanced from idle. Once it’s above 2000 RPM, it seems to run OK, but below 2000 RPM, it seem like one of the cylinders is not firing right. Needless to say, I did not pick-up the tractor. If I were a betting man, I’d bet the “free” injector that they put into cylinder #3 is not working correctly.

What I find the most disturbing about this experience is that their “mechanics” can’t hear the difference between an engine running on all three cylinders and one that is not. It seems that the absence of an error codes is good enough. The lack of what I would consider a “good” mechanic really focuses my concern on the rest of the rebuild. Since there were sales people at the dealer yesterday, I’ll have to call on Monday to start down the path to recovery.

 

[garry1p]

I stand corrected my dash resetting after start up is related to a low battery, probably because my battery used to be below 11.5 volts if set over 4 days.
I had it at the dealers but they said no problems found but replaced the battery anyway.
Got home same problem returning back to the dealer for another 2/3 weeks was not worth it so I installed a cutoff switch.
I will evidently get around to finding the parasitic draw just haven't taken the time to research.

 

[JCoastie]

I have an MT240 with a regen issue, as part of the trouble shooting, they replaced my ECU. Now the dash resets once in a while. It never did that with the old ECU and my battery is at 12.7vcd. I'll see if I can find the CA/CCA info on the battery and put a tester on it tomorrow.

 

[sd455dan]

UPDATE Time

The dealer finished putting the engine back together with the new short block, but they had trouble getting it to run. Multiple fuel injector related error codes. Fuel return test found the injector for cylinder #3 filled a pint bottle in about 30 seconds.

When I gave them the tractor, there were no error codes, but cylinder #3 was clean. So that injector was apparently leaking and that’s why the cylinder was clean. However, the engine idled smoothly and there were no error codes.

They decided to take a used injector from a warranty return engine to save me some money. I would have rather replaced all three, even though they’re $620 each from LS, but I didn’t feel like I should bring it up at the time since they weren’t charging me for the injector.

They had me pickup the tractor on 3/21, a rainy miserable day. Had to crank it a bit to get it to start and the idle was a bit rough, but I convinced myself that I was just being picky. With the rain running down my neck, I loaded it and took it home.

Next morning, it still idled rough. Warmed it up and started running it up a hill, but it really bogged down. Now with it warmed up, the rough idle was still present and it chug-chugged when I advanced the throttle. It sounds like a cylinder isn’t firing right. Shortly after, I start getting injector related error codes and it stalls. I was fortunate enough to have it re-start and run back onto the trailer. Obviously, I took it back on 3/22. I’ve kicking myself ever since for picking it up and not paying enough attention to how it sounded in the first place.

The dealer and I settle on rebuilding the injectors from cylinders #1 and #2. Unfortunately, nobody seems to be able to get the parts to rebuild these Delphi #28359042 injectors. So they get new ones from LS and install them. I go to get the tractor yesterday, 4/20, yes almost a month to the day. The idle is still rough, the rain is again running down the back of my neck, but I’m determined to check it out thoroughly before I take it back. It doesn’t bog down like before and I didn’t get any error codes in the 30 minutes that I ran it around there lot. Unfortunately, the idle is rough and still chug-chugs when the throttle is advanced from idle. Once it’s above 2000 RPM, it seems to run OK, but below 2000 RPM, it seem like one of the cylinders is not firing right. Needless to say, I did not pick-up the tractor. If I were a betting man, I’d bet the “free” injector that they put into cylinder #3 is not working correctly.

What I find the most disturbing about this experience is that their “mechanics” can’t hear the difference between an engine running on all three cylinders and one that is not. It seems that the absence of an error codes is good enough. The lack of what I would consider a “good” mechanic really focuses my concern on the rest of the rebuild. Since there were sales people at the dealer yesterday, I’ll have to call on Monday to start down the path to recovery.

Since this is a short block engine, it sounds like they bolted on the head from the original engine.
With reading the above I would definitely question whether they took the time to check and set the valve clearances.

2 out of 3 ain't bad, does not cut it for 3 cylinder diesels.


Just something to verify was done since a tight valve lash can keep an intake or exhaust valve off the seat killing any compression in that cylinder.

Hoping they get it dialed in for you soon.

 

[Williy]

hERE'S a manual you can download:

https://dealerportal.lstractorusa.com/lsdp_data/upload/real/MANUAL/20201109_79a052c6-f63f-445b-a640-b042879b6fb6.pdf

HERE'S a parts list maybe what you need????

https://partsforlstractors.com/files/XR4000_Part_manual.pdf

willy

 

[TexasRust]

sd455dan, you're right on the money. I'm really questioning the entire re-assembly. If a mechanic can't tell that the engine isn't running on all cylinders, he's not much of a mechanic. I think the service department for many dealers is kind of an after thought. They really just want to sell new equipment and parts.

Willy, thanks for the pdfs files. The OP Manual is a newer version than what I had. I typically use the LS parts portal
(Parts - LS Tractor USA)
to find parts and then find the Case/New Holland part at Messicks
(Messicks | The Equipment Parts, Sales & Service Experts).
I wish LS would get over themselves and start allowing their parts to be sold directly to the customer. It would be a lot more convenient.

JCoastie, I think garry1p has at least one solution. It appears that there is some parasitic current draw causing his problem and it would not be too surprising that the insulation on a wire got damaged when they were replacing your ECU. Mine didn't seem to be a drain down problem, but I've always been a bit concerned about the amount of spark I see when reconnecting the battery.

Overall, I still think the LS is a pretty good tractor. My neighbors have always been impressed by how much work mine can do. It's unfortunate that it is difficult to get competent service done anymore.

 

[TractorTYMe]

Man, what an ordeal You've been through. Hope you get it running 100% here rather soon than later.

 

[TimberFarm]

I hope this works out. I don't think I would ever trust a dealer to rebuild an engine this day and age. Even 40 years ago, everybody always knew to take an engine to specific machine shops where they had the reputation for doing things right and nowhere else.
Today's mechanics are just parts changers. They have no troubleshooting skills. Even if the dealer was putting in a complete crate motor, they would mess something up.
Keep after them until it is "right".

 

[TexasRust]

Contacted the dealer this morning and described what I'm hearing to the management level. After listening to the engine for themselves, they agree that one cylinder isn't firing. Their ordering another injector to replace the "free" one they pulled from a warranty engine.
This is pretty frustrating. Why can't people do their jobs without having their arms twisted.

 

[JohnT3383]

There is a 90 day warranty on either the short block or a complete engine. If they would have given a couple of years of warranty on the full engine, it might have been worth the extra money.

TR,
Sorry to hear about all your troubles (the entire forum makes me worry every time I look at my low-hour XG3140, but so far so good for me.
I'm posting because your issues remind me of non-LS maintenance issues I've had going back to the early '90s with more than one brand of vehicle, but an '87 F150 and a '98 Windstar particularly.
My view as a result has become that techs these days aren't trained to think past the codes, and if the codes are inadequate or misleading, the diagnosis will likely lead to blind parts replacement that the Navy calls easter-egging: irrelevant in a :cost-no-object, taxpayer pays the bills, DoD hides the waste world,' but painful to those of us who pay as we go.
Good luck!

 

[GS650GL]

There are injector tests that the dealer can do with the laptop computer service tool if they have it. All the larger dealers have it, some small dealers do not. There is also an air purge procedure that can be done with the service tool to force air from the fuel rail. The engine can run fine at higher rpm's, but have a rough idle or surging at idle, and the air purge will sometimes fix it. If they didn't do the purge after having the fuel system apart to replace the injectors, they should do it. It was a common problem on the XR4100 series for the engine wire harness to rub through against a bracket where it goes over the top of the radiator. It is the harness that goes from the ECU to the injectors and sensors. Wires rubbed there will cause fault codes and rough running. They would have had to move that harness to take the engine out. Just my opinion, but I would think a shop could resurface the crankshaft and put in new bearings and connecting rod cheaper than putting in a short block, but I'm old school (diesel mechanic for 40 years) so labor rates these days maybe don't make that cost effective.

 

[TexasRust]

Ya, when I taught electronics trouble shooting for a system, I told the customers that they should replace a board unless they could show me the specific pin on the specific chip that was not toggling when the proper inputs were satisfied.
The dealer told me about all the computer and injector diagnostic tools they have. Obviously, their not putting these tools to much use.
As for new verses rebuild, the cost of labor a parts makes it pretty much the same price in the end. At this point, the more the dealer has to put together, the more I worry. I'm sure a good mechanic could have done it for about he same price.
I'm currently asking my neighbors for recommendations for competent diesel mechanics in the central Texas area. I got complacent after yearly 20 years fixing everything on my old Kubota L245DT. The XR4150H is more difficult for me to work on even with an electronic version of the shop manual. Hopefully, I'll eventually get the tractor back and find a competent mechanic.

 

[TexasRust]

The tractor’s finally back. Runs smooth and has plenty of torque again. Two and a half months for the rebuild and another month and a half to get all the injectors replaced. I appreciate that they were trying to save me some money, but I would not replace a single injector. When one’s bad, the others are probably not far behind. The service manager admitted that their injector tester isn’t working, so the “free” injector couldn’t be tested before installation. They’re relying on the volume of diesel return from the installed injectors as an indicator of good or bad.

The dash reset when starting the tractor is still there intermittently. So I have to apologize to all of you guys out there that have this dash reset. The failing bearing had NOTHING to do with the dash resetting.

While installing an oil pressure gauge, I noticed that the oil pressure switch is stuck open. Makes me wonder how long the “oil light” hasn’t worked. Normally it would be on before the engine was started, but I really only look for it after the engine is running. It’s something to think about if you don’t have a gauge. At cold idle, I’m seeing 70-80psi. Once the tractor has warmed up, I’m seeing 40-45psi. I’m planning to also replace the switch, but I feel a lot better seeing the actual pressure. This particular switch is supposed to open at about 7psi. Not a lot of protection, but better than nothing. I can’t help wondering if the tractor lost oil pressure and I didn’t know. A new oil pump was not part of the short block, but I had new one put in anyway. So I’ll never know for sure.

In hind sight:

Many mechanics seem to function only as well as the diagnostic computer and error codes. Having them try to give me back the tractor when it was clearly missing a cylinder is deeply disturbing. The fact that it happened twice seems criminal. So, I need to find a diesel mechanic that I can trust. It probably won’t be a dealer. After thinking about all problems I’ve experienced with both automotive and tractor dealers, I’m going to have to find someone that is independent.

Probably should have gone with a full engine. After adding the oil pump and three new injectors, the difference is only about $2000-3000. The rebuild, with short block, was originally quoted at $7000. Going with the full engine was $11000 and I would have had the tractor back March 15. The lower quote does not always mean less money in the end. I know that the mechanics out there will be saying it should have been a complete rebuild. Replacing everything in cylinder #3 and turning the crank would have been cheaper, but I’m not really in a position to do it myself and I don’t think the dealership would have been up to the task.

I need a better ritual for checking things before and after starting the tractor. When did that pressure switch fail? Did I miss the failure? I started out as a weekend warrior with these tractors. I worked the property one weekend a month. The 1978 Kubota L245DT has been bullet proof. There is only one light on the Kubota, so it’s pretty obvious when that light doesn’t work. That’s the way to make a tractor. When I added the LS XR4150H in 2016, I got a computer driven tractor that I used 100 hours per year. There are a lot of lights on the dash, but there are really only two that should be lit before the tractor starts, the parking brake and the oil pressure light. I’ll never know if this inattention led to this failure, but it could have. I posted my problems relating to the hydraulic oil cooler on this tractor in a different thread, but suffice it to say, I no longer use and LS cooler and I have temperature and pressure sensors on both the inlet and outlet of my cooler. So now I have engine oil pressure to add to the information that was not originally available on the tractor. A friend of mine was always saying that “it’s not the things you know that hurt you, it’s the things you think you know that are not so that hurt you”. I thought I had engine oil pressure, but I may not have. Going forward, I now have a gauge to measure the engine oil pressure.

Thanks for all your inputs. I've got three months to see if everything holds together. That's about 100 hours at my current usage rate. Maybe a bit more, I've got a lot of stuff that I need to use the grapple to move. I think this thread is finished at this point.

 

[Avenger]

Thank you for the update! And congratulations on getting your machine back and in good working order! Hopefully it will last a bit longer than the last engine.