X595 or X748 whats your pick?

   / X595 or X748 whats your pick?
  • Thread Starter
#11  
scrappy isb67 said:
to say in a blanket statment one is better is incorrect, each has its advantages and disadvantages.

hydraulic is NOT superior by ANY MEANS! any hydraulic system has HOSES and lines that can be damaged and make the machine inoperable. the driveshaft and u-joints will take more of a hit without failure than hyd components. and hyd motors and control valves are EXPENSIVE and can LEAK, they can also be damaged by heat. the construction equipment has HUGE oil coolers to compensate for the heat that their hyd systems. I have seen SEVERAL hydros ruined by heat breaking down the oil and scoring the pump and/or motors.

Electric is also NOT better necessarily. the ONLY reason a locomotive is electric is being able to START the load, a mechanical system strong enought to withstand and apply the torque is impractical in this application. electric is NOT a lossless system, you lose power in creating the electricity, in the circuit itself thru resistance and converting it back to motion. and AGAIN the electric generators, motors and the required controllers are ALL EXPENSIVE!
Tell me how electric is better when my DIESEL MANUAL trans Jetta can get the same or BETTER mileage as a Prius? and I don't have a $4000 battery system that has to be replaced right after it is out of warranty.

Hmmmmmm, ok I'm back to confused again. I must admit, you both have good arguements.
 
   / X595 or X748 whats your pick? #12  
My numbers were just for comparison. Since you are trading the quoted price wil be higher as typically an outright sale is just that way.

Drive/demo a 4ws once. It's neat, but to me feels like the tail wags the dog. Maybe in years to come they'll make a speed sensitive unit or even an electromechanical unit to eliminate the tie rods and allow a 7 iron install, but to me I did not care for it.
 
   / X595 or X748 whats your pick? #13  
to say in a blanket statment one is better is incorrect, each has its advantages and disadvantages.

hydraulic is NOT superior by ANY MEANS! any hydraulic system has HOSES and lines that can be damaged and make the machine inoperable. the driveshaft and u-joints will take more of a hit without failure than hyd components. and hyd motors and control valves are EXPENSIVE and can LEAK, they can also be damaged by heat. the construction equipment has HUGE oil coolers to compensate for the heat that their hyd systems. I have seen SEVERAL hydros ruined by heat breaking down the oil and scoring the pump and/or motors.

Electric is also NOT better necessarily. the ONLY reason a locomotive is electric is being able to START the load, a mechanical system strong enought to withstand and apply the torque is impractical in this application. electric is NOT a lossless system, you lose power in creating the electricity, in the circuit itself thru resistance and converting it back to motion. and AGAIN the electric generators, motors and the required controllers are ALL EXPENSIVE!
Tell me how electric is better when my DIESEL MANUAL trans Jetta can get the same or BETTER mileage as a Prius? and I don't have a $4000 battery system that has to be replaced right after it is out of warranty.

1. Hoses are of little concern. Why? Because if you route the hoses correctly, you will never catch them on anything. If you bury your tractor up to it's frame, and manage to somehow tear out one of the hoses for the AWD, you are the only thing at fault, not the tractor. The chances of damaging a hose on an X748 are very remote. John Deere did a good job of tucking them away up top except for where they must come down to the fittings on the front end, but since this is directly behind the axle assembly, it would guard the hoses against a hit anyways. Dry rot? Yea, maybe in 10 YEARS you will have to spend $150 on hoses. Hydraulic motors and valves are a simple fix. If it starts to leak, remove the cover plate and replace the gasket. If your mechanical, there is nothing to an hydraulic motor or valve. These parts are constantly being lubricated, like I said before, so the chance of failure is actually pretty remote. All of your statements are, this CAN happen, or that CAN happen, these are not things that happen to many X748 owners, if any at all. Everything has a danger and a downfall, I am not saying hydraulic drive is perfect, but it IS superior in terms of simplicity and performance. Mechanical 4WD has twice the parts of a Hydraulic AWD system, you cannot argue that.

Heat? We're talking about a garden tractor here. I referenced construction equipment for it's good example of hydraulic power. You are no longer comparing apples to apples. Excavators cycle hundreds of times per minute, with constant hydraulic changes in every cylinder. These are GARDEN TRACTORS. No X748 is going to build up an extreme oil temperature that will destroy the hydraulic system. You would break the machine long before you could destroy the hydrostatic system from heat damage. As long as your running the tractor at full throttle all the time like you should be, you have nothing to worry about.

2. Electric is more efficient than a mechanical drive-train, again, there is absolutely no arguing this point. Locomotives are powered the way they are for many more reasons than simply "starting the load" Dynamic breaking for example. Without it, we would have train wrecks all over the place. It is only possible to create dynamic breaking with an electrical field of energy, which is produced by the generator. When starting out with a train, your tractive effort will be pinned over almost to the red, in notch 8. Let's say you get up to speed of 65, 70 MPH on a main line, and you need notch 8 to maintain speed at that point. Even though your in run 8, same as when you started, your tractive effort will be much much less. The engine RPM is the same, but your not using all of your electrical power at your disposal. With a mechanical system, the engine would lug down like a vehicle in a low gear pulling a hill. Trains could never work unless they work exactly the way they do now. Electric motors can constantly vary there power output, without a need in engine RPM change or a gear change like in a transmission.

3. I never said all vehicles should be HYBRIDS, YOU said that. I SAID, and listen closely now, every vehicle should have a DIESEL ENGINE, HOOKED TO A GENERATOR, THAT THAN SENDS POWER TO ELECTRIC WHEEL MOTORS, AT EACH WHEEL, VIA LARGE COPPER CABLES. NOWHERE did I mention vehicles should have battery banks. Hybrids are a complete sham. Not only are they not as good on fuel as a diesel engine, but people forget how much it took to mine the material needed to make all those batteries, and than produce them. That requires huge earth moving equipment, using millions of gallons of diesel, to extract the lithium needed for your "oh so fuel efficient hybrid" In the end, you caused more harm to the world than a fossil fueled engine alone.

Slap a generator behind that diesel engine in that Jetta, and have an electric wheel motor at each wheel, and you will see more MPG instantly, I guarantee it. We are talking a short distance the power has to travel, and a small amount of power to boot. Any loss in such a small system, with such a short amount of cabling, would be negligible. You could use the wasted heat from the generator to heat the vehicle even, eliminating the need for a heater core under your dash that will one day fail and spew anti-freeze all over the floorboards inside your car. With brushless technology, which has been around for YEARS, a car like I described could be faster than the fastest mechanical drivetrain car out there today, even the million dollar cars. Brushless electric motors create insane amounts of torque, instantly, and they always do. They have no sweet spot, they have no need to be in a certain RPM range to make there best power. They make maximum power, 100% of the time if you want it. Oh yea, brushless motors are virtually maintenance free as well. A little lubrication every now and again, and that's it.

AGAIN, this is NOT what a hybrid is. A Hybrid is a Hybrid, I am talking about a Diesel-Electric powered car, not with electric batteries, with a generator that sends power straight to the wheels, not to a battery bank. There would never be a time that diesel engine is not running if the car is moving or being used, but as soon as you step on the pedal, the power at each wheel motor is what moves the machine, not batteries.
 
   / X595 or X748 whats your pick?
  • Thread Starter
#14  
Most of the time I know what I should do, but this time I am truly confused. It's not the money, it really isn't. I could care less about the $4000 difference. On top of that, I explained the issue to my wife and her response was "what the **** is wrong with you, go get the new one". Truth is, I love my X595, but I want to make the deal that makes good sense. I guess I should go test drive an X748 and 749. I usually enjoy this, but not this time for whatever reason.

Thanks everyone for the input.
 
   / X595 or X748 whats your pick? #15  
Most of the time I know what I should do, but this time I am truly confused. It's not the money, it really isn't. I could care less about the $4000 difference. On top of that, I explained the issue to my wife and her response was "what the **** is wrong with you, go get the new one". Truth is, I love my X595, but I want to make the deal that makes good sense. I guess I should go test drive an X748 and 749. I usually enjoy this, but not this time for whatever reason.

Thanks everyone for the input.

I can understand your situation, but I must say, I am not sure why you are hesitating, you don't want to wait too long to make the right decision, and than all of the sudden it isn't available to you anymore.

A simple yes or no answer. Is the X748 superior to the X595? Yes. 100% No doubt.

The X748 has a good amount of newer, better features, a good example is the ability to run the 7 Iron deck. Even better fuel economy than your X595, hard to believe, I know. The AWD system. These are just to name a few.

Good luck either way!
 
   / X595 or X748 whats your pick? #16  
1. Hoses are of little concern. Why? Because if you route the hoses correctly, you will never catch them on anything. If you bury your tractor up to it's frame, and manage to somehow tear out one of the hoses for the AWD, you are the only thing at fault, not the tractor. The chances of damaging a hose on an X748 are very remote. John Deere did a good job of tucking them away up top except for where they must come down to the fittings on the front end, but since this is directly behind the axle assembly, it would guard the hoses against a hit anyways. Dry rot? Yea, maybe in 10 YEARS you will have to spend $150 on hoses. Hydraulic motors and valves are a simple fix. If it starts to leak, remove the cover plate and replace the gasket. If your mechanical, there is nothing to an hydraulic motor or valve. These parts are constantly being lubricated, like I said before, so the chance of failure is actually pretty remote. All of your statements are, this CAN happen, or that CAN happen, these are not things that happen to many X748 owners, if any at all. Everything has a danger and a downfall, I am not saying hydraulic drive is perfect, but it IS superior in terms of simplicity and performance. Mechanical 4WD has twice the parts of a Hydraulic AWD system, you cannot argue that.

Heat? We're talking about a garden tractor here. I referenced construction equipment for it's good example of hydraulic power. You are no longer comparing apples to apples. Excavators cycle hundreds of times per minute, with constant hydraulic changes in every cylinder. These are GARDEN TRACTORS. No X748 is going to build up an extreme oil temperature that will destroy the hydraulic system. You would break the machine long before you could destroy the hydrostatic system from heat damage. As long as your running the tractor at full throttle all the time like you should be, you have nothing to worry about.

2. Electric is more efficient than a mechanical drive-train, again, there is absolutely no arguing this point. Locomotives are powered the way they are for many more reasons than simply "starting the load" Dynamic breaking for example. Without it, we would have train wrecks all over the place. It is only possible to create dynamic breaking with an electrical field of energy, which is produced by the generator. When starting out with a train, your tractive effort will be pinned over almost to the red, in notch 8. Let's say you get up to speed of 65, 70 MPH on a main line, and you need notch 8 to maintain speed at that point. Even though your in run 8, same as when you started, your tractive effort will be much much less. The engine RPM is the same, but your not using all of your electrical power at your disposal. With a mechanical system, the engine would lug down like a vehicle in a low gear pulling a hill. Trains could never work unless they work exactly the way they do now. Electric motors can constantly vary there power output, without a need in engine RPM change or a gear change like in a transmission.

3. I never said all vehicles should be HYBRIDS, YOU said that. I SAID, and listen closely now, every vehicle should have a DIESEL ENGINE, HOOKED TO A GENERATOR, THAT THAN SENDS POWER TO ELECTRIC WHEEL MOTORS, AT EACH WHEEL, VIA LARGE COPPER CABLES. NOWHERE did I mention vehicles should have battery banks. Hybrids are a complete sham. Not only are they not as good on fuel as a diesel engine, but people forget how much it took to mine the material needed to make all those batteries, and than produce them. That requires huge earth moving equipment, using millions of gallons of diesel, to extract the lithium needed for your "oh so fuel efficient hybrid" In the end, you caused more harm to the world than a fossil fueled engine alone.

Slap a generator behind that diesel engine in that Jetta, and have an electric wheel motor at each wheel, and you will see more MPG instantly, I guarantee it. We are talking a short distance the power has to travel, and a small amount of power to boot. Any loss in such a small system, with such a short amount of cabling, would be negligible. You could use the wasted heat from the generator to heat the vehicle even, eliminating the need for a heater core under your dash that will one day fail and spew anti-freeze all over the floorboards inside your car. With brushless technology, which has been around for YEARS, a car like I described could be faster than the fastest mechanical drivetrain car out there today, even the million dollar cars. Brushless electric motors create insane amounts of torque, instantly, and they always do. They have no sweet spot, they have no need to be in a certain RPM range to make there best power. They make maximum power, 100% of the time if you want it. Oh yea, brushless motors are virtually maintenance free as well. A little lubrication every now and again, and that's it.

AGAIN, this is NOT what a hybrid is. A Hybrid is a Hybrid, I am talking about a Diesel-Electric powered car, not with electric batteries, with a generator that sends power straight to the wheels, not to a battery bank. There would never be a time that diesel engine is not running if the car is moving or being used, but as soon as you step on the pedal, the power at each wheel motor is what moves the machine, not batteries.
machines vibrate and WILL chafe(wear) holes in lines and hoses. a simple leak will stop the machine DEAD in its tracks. How many hydraulic motors are there in a 748? 4? Is if it is like every other awd that I have ever seen( that didn't use a secondary system to gain traction control and adding expense), all you have to do to get stuck is have 1 wheel spinning. how is that any better? and unless the 748 uses a flow divider, it will get stuck with 1 wheel spinning. and if it does have a flow divider, that is another expensive component to replace. Hydraulic components DO wear out, I have seen PLENTY of hyd pumps get replaced because they wore out and quit pumping. and those pumps were EXPENSIVE too!
and on to the heat issue, on a JD 2305, what happens if the driveshaft fan gets damaged? the hydro overheats and scores the pump/motors requiring REPLACEMENT. and there are plenty of garden TRACTORS that have had their hydros replaced because they overheated. and the hydro units were $800 each!
every hydraulic system in anything can fail due to HEAT.
and finally, a electric/hydrostatic drive system is MORE expensive to produce that a mechanical system. producing such a system raises the price to a point that it is not worthwhile. I paid LESS for my 2320 CUT than an X748 would have cost me! I considered a X748 until I saw this! by getting the 2320, I got a LOT more capable MECHANICAL 4wd system and greater capacity in ALL regards. it is still a hydro but there was no choice there.
 
   / X595 or X748 whats your pick? #17  
Well it seems like everyone is for the X748. Lots of good points. I had no idea that the front wheels were powered hydraulically. Sounds like the perfect set up.

Kennedy I have no doubt that the numbers he quoted me were his bottom line, especially considering the trade-in offer. Not sure where you got your prices, but keep in mind that I am about 45 minutes north of NYC, and prices up here always seem to be a good amount higher, unfortunately.

Now comes the big question, do I get the 748 with the 7 iron deck (which is why I considered the trade in to begin with) or do I look at the 749 with a regular deck. (something very cool about the 4 wheel steering system) I have recently seen a discussion on that very same question. I guess I will be looking it up.

Thanks again everyone



Carl,
Thought about this again this morning, the dealer is making you a very good offer and I recommend you go for it. I suspect he has a customer who wants a low hour 595 and is ready to buy.

Choosing between the x748 and the x749, I had to do this myself and chose the aws because I have to get into alot of confined spaces often on a steep slope. If you have enough room not to need the extra sharp turning radius I would go with the 2ws and get the 7 iron deck. It would seem listening to you that the x748 would be the more likely upgrade as you have no complaints about the handling and fit using your present x595. You would have the benefit of the 7 iron deck, no scuffing in fwd and a new warranty along with a few other minor upgrades. I should add that starting over with a new machine is nice because all the rubber parts do age whether you use them or not and between the engine, transmission and tires that can be a good reason to go for the new machine.
 
   / X595 or X748 whats your pick? #18  
JD and scrappy,
You guys are kind of overstating your cases don't you think?

Trains with EMDs' and traction motors are great systems and I have dealt with them over several years as a diesel electric technician for a drilling company years ago but I went out just to be sure and can't find anything like this on my x749.

The x748-749 are different from a 2320, I would not say that one is better than the other. A smart person would choose which one fits their needs the best and that can vary enough to make the choice between a machine designed to be a mower and another machine designed to be a small tractor. I have advocated having a separate mower and separate tractor(s) as the best scenario and practice what I preach. The x748 and x749 are better at mowing with the hydraulic front axles and single speed trannies than the 2320. The 2320 with two speed range gear and more ground clearance is better for most tractor uses. All three of these mentioned will do most of the mowing and small tractor jobs reasonably well. I am considering a 2720 for the small tractor work if I stay busy enough.
 
   / X595 or X748 whats your pick? #19  
I have a friend that bought an x720 with a 7 iron deck and he told me he hated it because it doesn't lift as high as a regular 62 and the parts were more expensive. The regular deck is plenty strong for an x700 series tractor.
 
   / X595 or X748 whats your pick?
  • Thread Starter
#20  
K7LN said:
:confused2:

I read someplace where it said lot size: 1 acre. For that, do you really need 4WD? This whole thing sounds like a question of which toy do I want. With 1 acre and 78 hours on a machine I loved, take a cold shower and get over it. You already have 3 tractors. If you truly want the 7 Iron and want to upgrade to a diesel, then trade-up to the X740 and be done with it.

Yup, lot size is only 1 acre, and my house covers a good amount of that. I wanted the 4WD because to get to my back property I have to go up a steep incline and my GX345 couldn't do it. As far as upgrading to a diesel, well the X595 is a diesel, so that's not the reason.

Do I NEED this tractor, absolutely not, it's a total luxury. I could get away with a walk behind if I had to. I just love and enjoy tractors and probably always will.

But this is not the point. Let's just say I had 3 acres to mow. The question is, what is the smart move, and more so, what is the better tractor?

As I said before, I will go and test drive the X748 and 749, maybe that will help me make up my mind.

Here are some picks of the incline. Just steep enough to stop the GX345.



image-1385722511.jpg



image-3065380277.jpg
 

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