Woods FEL and BH on Kioti CK20 or Kubota B7510?

[LC Brewing]

I've been looking hard at tractors for the past few months. The <CEO> may/may not finally let me pull the trigger in the next couple of months based mostly on the prices I can come up with versus the financial state of the household.

My land is 5 acres, mostly covered with a not-too-dense scattering of alder and fir trees (18"~24" on the butt), which I want to leave standing. Scattered in between those are a combination of smaller brush, blackberries, and other weeds. It is about 60% slope (varying from about 2% to 20% grades), and the rest basically level. About 1/2 acre was cleared/leveled for the house, but I still need to fine grade the yard and get grass in.

I've been looking hard at Kubotas and Kiotis, as they are the two I have the easiest access to (i.e. dealers near by). I definitely want a TLB setup...but may have to wait to add the BH later to be able to get the tractor at all within the next 5 years. I'm looking at using it mostly for grading/cleaning up my driveway (700' long), grading/landscaping the 1/2 acre yard, clearing brush and debris on the remainder of the 5 acres, and endless projects for trenching irrigation, foundation prep for outbuildings, helping the neighborhood association with road maintenance, etc. Mowing is NOT on the list of intended functions - unless I add a RFM later on for the areas cleared down the road.

I've ruled out the BX series Kubotas due mostly to concerns with ground clearance and my feeling that they may be just a tad on the small side to handle the stuff I want to do, and because of the amount of slopes I'll have to contend with. I'm left alternately looking at the B7510, B7610, and B7800 for Kubotas and the CK20, CK25, and LK3054XS for the Kiotis. Reading the vast amounts of information here on this site, I've begun to conclude that I really will be well suited with one of the smaller units like the B7510 or the CK20. It happens that the pricing is easiest to swallow on those units as well.

Now comes the question - what are the experiences with WOODS FEL's and BH's on either of these units? Or at least the Woods backhoes for both units, and the Woods loader on the Kioti (I'm a little scared by the recent loader issues reported in the Kioti threads).

A lot of features on the new Groundbreaker backhoes have me very interested in them, but I'm curious what pricing is like, and how well the mounting works (sub-frame), versus the factory OEM units. It seems the subframe for the Kioti OEM unit eats a lot of ground clearance.

As far as the loaders go, it seems the Woods unit (L1006) for the CK20 is pretty limited in lift capacity compared to the Kioti loader. Is that just differences in testing, or is it really that limited? Is that the only loader that will work for the CK20? And how is it's pricing compared to OEM?

Sorry for such a long post, and so many questions, but this looks like the best place to ask these sort of questions. At least opinions will be unbiased (from a "buy this unit because I sell it" standpoint). Thanks for all of your insight.

 

[coasterez]

If you want lift capacity, why not consider a CK25 with woods loader? Of course, the CK20 is an excellent loader machine for its size. And Kioti is going to fix the loader issue soon.

Also, since you say you want a TLB (eventually), I just want to point out that the CK25 is much much heavier and has better hydraulics, which makes for a more capable digging platform that will accept larger implements. It's a lot more tractor (weight and frame size) for just a few more dollars. If ground engagement is a primary task, buy the biggest machine you can afford.

Have you looked at TYM, Branson, Century, Scorpian, and Mahindra? These are great ground machines, and I've noticed that there are a few left overs from '05 with good deals to be had on some of them too.

 

[barticus73]

Check out the pricing on the Farmtrac TLB's as well. I have gotten quotes of $20,000 on a 300 DTC TLB and $23,000 on a 360 DTC TLB. Farmtrac.com is their websight. Seems like a lot of tractor for the price compared to others.

 

[LC Brewing]

Problem with the "bigger is better" theory for me is that I'm not convinced it is - at least once the jump from subCUT to CUT is made. The trees and slopes I've got to contend with are going to seriously impact how big of a machine I can actually manuever on my land. Every 25~30+ HP machine I see around (and I look for tractors in every garage and field I drive by on my way to/from work every day) is sitting on a piece of land with lots of pasture and little terrain change. I'm a little less concerned with having a machine that will get everything done as fast as possible than I am with having a machine that will do what I need it to do. And price has a lot to do with what I can get as well - since the current housepayment does absorb a large amount of the family cashflow (couldn't have even gotten the place if we didn't build it ourselves). Add to that the fact that any new tractor I am looking at is going to cost somewhere around 20% to 100% more than I paid for both the vehicles we own ('93 4Runner and '99 Mazda car) - and it makes a hard sell to the CFO.

Anything is an improvement over trying to tame 4-1/2 acres of blackberry underbrush with a straight-shaft brushcutter/weadeater and a 16" chainsaw (which is borrowed). And as many others can attest - seat time is often a sort of solitary therapy away from life's daily grind. And there's no way in h ll I'm going to try and landscape the front yard with my wheelbarrow and a couple of shovels and rakes.

My current quotes on Kioti machines (which I am leaning more toward than the Kubotas at this time) are at $17,600 for a CK20H TLB (Kioti BH), $21,100 for the LK3054XS TLB, and $21,200 for the CK25H TLB (Kioti BH). Prices without BH have been quoted at $13,600 for the CK20H and $15,000 for the CK25H. Kubotas with FEL only have been ballpark $15,000 for the 7510 and $16,500 for 7610. I have no idea in the world what a Woods 70X runs...I need to call a few dealers and ask still. I could probably (just barely) justify the extra $1,400 to move up to the CK25 with FEL only, but in seeing the CK20 and the CK25 side-by-side, the CK25 just looks to me like I am going to find more challenges with it fitting some places. Unfortunately, no one in my area rents machines in this size class that I can actually put to the test to determine how it will actually do under my conditions. And, no dealer wants to demo a machine without a commitment to buy - which I am months away from still. Anyone close by want to loan or rent a machine to me for a weekend or two in August.

I have looked briefly at the TYM machines, since there is a dealer between my work and my home, but he is more interested in pushing his Chinese Tytan brand than giving any real information or quotes for the TYM machines - reminds me of a used car dealer trying to push the '76 Lincoln in the back corner taking up space. According to Montana's website, he is also the Montana dealer locally, although I've not seen a Montana tractor that I could identify on his lot. The closest Kioti dealer to my home also claims to carry Branson, but has very little in stock and only wants to sell me the LK3054XS TLB that I think she's been sitting on for close to two years (judging by the fact I've seen the same sized TLB "on display" for about that long on their little frontage strip by the freeway) - for almost $2k more than I've been quoted by another dealer just north of where I work. I'm going to be visiting my parents next weekend up in Maka's territory, so I'll probably stop in his place to take a real look at the Montana lineup while I'm there. Not sure how pricing sits on their line, but maybe I can get the "local guy buying in his hometown" deal.

Other brands mentioned (Scorpion, Mahindra, and Century) all seem to either be defunct, or their nearest dealers are all 50 miles in the opposite direction of my normal commute - which makes visiting and looking at them very difficult. I've looked at some Chinese (Tytan by default - see above) and Jinma, but there is a level of refinement I would like to have that I don't see in the machines I've looked at so far. And the local JD (though not mentioned) dealer has been nothing but arrogant when I've stopped to ask questions about pricing and comparisons with other machines. I'm one of those people that is immediately turned off by arrogant salesmen - so that was an immediate deal breaker for me. Courteous, knowledgable salespeople that can point out rational highlights to why their line is superior (or they believe anyway) will win my loyalty - even at a higher price - than those that can only bash their competition. But that's a whole different post...

So...in summary (I guess) - I'd rather buy a tractor with OEM main implements (FEL and BH) than a non-OEM, which may not be supported by the tractor manufacturer.

However, in the case of the Kioti FEL, I'm hopeful to see Kioti actually announce a solution to the loader issues. I'm also curious (and I guess need to call a dealer to ask) exactly what Woods FEL's match up to which Kioti machines, and how the respective capacities really do compare to the Kioti FEL's.

In the case of the backhoes, I'm less inclinded to be "locked in" by the OEM units. I am concerned with how much ground clearance the Kioti BH subframe eats up. I also want to know the Woods BH subframe fairs as far as sturdiness, ease of use, interference with other implements, and overall impressions when compared against both the Kubota and the Kioti OEM mounts.

Last, but not least, I'd like some idea on how these implements price out compared to the OEM units.

Sorry for the length on this post - I knew that every answer I got would probably generate a dozen more questions. Thanks for bearing with me through this process...

 

[ovrszd]

Since your primary limiter is money, why not consider shopping for a used machine?? You can cut the costs by 30% with a low hours machine under 400 hours. If you shop for something older with more hours you could cut that figure in half. Leaves a lot of room for attachments. Also I think you need to live on your 5 acres for a little while and get used to it's size. That's not very much property. Once you get thru it once, you probably won't put more than 30 hours a year on your tractor including mowing the lawn portion. Almost all of the small under brush could be cleared by hand and would create some very romantic bonfires for you and the wife to share. The stumps could be dug out by hand or sawn at an appropriate height and left for decoration. Makes a great spot to sit a planter. Might take you a couple years of evenings and weekends but that's what property ownership is about. I don't think the CFO is going to be very happy with a $20K tractor sitting around two months from now with the work all done.

The best times I've had on my 20 acres was the times when I did the improvements with minimal equipment, mostly by hand. It instills a pride and ownership that you won't get from the sterile environment of a $20k tractor seat. Then when you are more financially secure you can buy an outlandish tractor/equipment combination like most of us posters on here have, that will mow the lawn in about ten minutes and brush cut the timber in a couple hours!!!

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I sell loads and loads of Woods equipment, they sell great stuff, but I'm not real crazy with the loaders. The bulk of the cost savings comes from a cheaper loader valve than Kubota uses, its operation is not as smooth and it lacks some of the more advanced functions. Woods backhoe mounts are as good, and often better than the OEM. I'd have no concern there. I'd look at the BH6000 backhoe, You should be able to get a B7510/LA302/BH6000 for just over 17,000k.

 

[coasterez]

LC,

It's clear you are putting a lot of thought and time into this decision. By doing so, I'm sure you'll make the right choice. Take your time. Read a lot. Test drive as many as you can.

For the best size/manueverability, I think the TYM T233 or T273 are the best choices. They are signicantly shorter than the CK20 and all other specs are fairly close. The CK is a little heavier, but the TYMs give you more hp. So push that dealer to let you test one out. They are very impressive. Though, my experience has been that the T273 is on par with the CK25 price wise, and maybe slightly higher.

As for backhoes on Kiotis, many recommend the Woods these days. As I understand it, though, part of the subframe stays on the tractor thereby reducing ground clearance even with the backhoe dismounted. But, I'm not sure how significant it is. I'm sure you've read that there have been some troubles with some Kioti backhoes. I bought a Rhino 75 instead for my CK25. It works great. I've done a great deal of heavy digging with it and have had no problems. It reduces ground clearance by about 5 inches when mounted and virtually no reduction when not. Off and on in less than 1 minute each.

Your pricing sounds about right for a CK25 TLB HST. You are right, the CK25 is a lot bigger tractor, and not really necessary for 5 acres. Heck, what who am I to talk. I have a CK25 on only 2.5 acres! But, I love what I can do with it. The backhoes that fit the CK20 would not have been big enough for some of the things I've barely gotten done with my Rhino 75. Doing those tasks myself as opposed to hiring them out have probably paid for the difference in the cost of the machines.

I'm not knocking the CK20. It is a very very capable little tractor that is probably the best bang for the buck in your case and I'm sure you'd get some brownie points with the CFO for picking the best value solution. Or you could spend the money saved on more attachments, like a grapple, digging bar, box blade, grader, rake, or post hole digger. But, do consider that all tasks are not just about time. There will be some (albethey few) that the little tractor just cannot do. In my case, I had/have very specific tasks that were/are just too big for a smaller machine and its smaller implements. Of course when I get them all done, then I'll have one heck of an expensive mulch mover.

If stability is a concern for you, I strongly suggest that you get the tires filled with fluid. It really makes a difference, especially without the backhoe mounted. Also, I have R4 tires, and sometimes wish I had ags for the better traction (I got my tractor stuck in the mud the first week I owned it). But, the R4's are more stable and tear up the lawn less. I want a winch for mine so I won't care if I get stuck.

Good luck. I hope I've helped a bit.

Tom

 

[IslandTractor]

I am working on a plot of land and with similar tasks to what you are describing. I have a Kioti CK20 TLB and am very happy with it. Although the recent loader cracking issue is a pain, I don't doubt that Kioti will have that fixed in the next few months so I'd recommend you stick with the Kioti FEL (after the fix). The Kioti KB2365 backhoe is probably the best match for the CK20. It does have a substantial subframe which lowers the ground clearance by a couple of inches but I have been using mine in rough terrain without a single hassle related to the ground clearance. The part that is lowest is a half inch (at least) thick steel bracket that would rip out anything it came in contact with such as a small stump so it is really a non issue despite being raised in these TBN discussions ad nauseum. The new Woods backhoes look nice but I am pretty sure they are substantially more money than the Kioti.

For the type of work you are describing, a CK20 TLB with a 48 brush hog and either a real grapple or a bucket grapple set up would be just the ticket. It is a tough little bugger and for about $17600 you're not going to beat it. 4 year warranty is nice too.

 

[LC Brewing]

What did the grapple set you back for that rig? Did you have to add extra hydraulics to operate the grapple portion, or do the standard loader controls run it as well?

Thanks for the replies - All of this has been a lot of help.

 

[IslandTractor]

The grapple is a Millonzi light duty root grapple and I got it via ebay. I think they can be had for about $700. You would also need a QA adapter for the FEL which costs ??? (I got a "prototype" from Millonzi but I don't know what it would cost from them or someone else (ATI for example). I suspect you could get the whole thing for a tad more than a grand plus shipping.

I control my grapple via rear remotes which also operate the backhoe. Rear remotes can be installed by the dealer and are a better option than "power beyond" if you are thinking of ever operating any hydraulically controlled attachments like a grapple or a top link. I suspect a dealer would charge something around $500 to install them but I'm not certain as my tractor was used and came equipped. Some guys have added diverter valves to their FEL controller and that is about the same cost as adding rear remotes. In either case you also need to purchase appropriate lengths of hydraulic hose and fittings to link into the tractor hydraulics.

A cheaper option is to add a grapple attachment to the Kioti bucket. I am certain that is a much better option than no grapple at all but I also cannot imagine it is as effective as a real grapple. I think you can get the Add A Grapple for about $500-600 and install it yourself. Hydraulics would be the same options as I discussed above and would cost additional.