Which engine is better

[cmkh3]

Which engine is better for hard use in a John Deere 318 and why?
Briggs & Stratton Vanguard 23 hp
or
Onan P218

 

[jltrent]

I like the B & S engines better.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Onan parts are always more expensive. The Briggs engines are good engines.

 

[brain55]

I would always pick the Briggs over an Onan, for parts prices and availability.

Brian

 

[oldnslo]

If Honda offers a retrofit kit I would use it before the B & S or Onan. In colder weather I.e snow removal, the Onans had a problem with lube to the cam shaft bearings. When these bearings spun it usually ruined the block. I have helped friends replace three of them in the last few years most had around 600 - 700 hours on them.

Roy

 

[brain55]

If Honda offers a retrofit kit I would use it before the B & S or Onan. In colder weather I.e snow removal, the Onans had a problem with lube to the cam shaft bearings. When these bearings spun it usually ruined the block. I have helped friends replace three of them in the last few years most had around 600 - 700 hours on them.

Roy

Well yeah, I would pick Honda and then Kohler over Briggs, and Onan would be near the bottom of the list. I already have 1500 hrs. on my Honda EU6500is generator that is about 15 months old. There is no doubt in my mind that Honda is the superior engine. But that wasn't the question.

Brian

 

[eepete]

oldnslo, you got me worried since I'm over 700 hours on my Onan engine. For 19 years I ran straight 30 weight, and have now changed over to a 15-30. Any gut feel on if that multigrade oil will help with the problem you talked about, or is it just a matter of how many hours it's been run in the cold? Here in NC, it gets out in the cold an average of once a winter.

Pete

 

[CHDinCT]

Wow, no good opinions on the Onans. I've had mine for 17 years and 640 hours with out a hitch (knock on wood). Used it to plow snow for years and it gets pretty cold here in CT. I have heard the parts are expensive but I've also heard they usually run 1,000 - 1,500 hours without a problem if maintained. I'd be interested in learning more about the lube issue. Just switched to synthetic 30W from dino.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Wow, no good opinions on the Onans. I've had mine for 17 years and 640 hours with out a hitch (knock on wood). Used it to plow snow for years and it gets pretty cold here in CT. I have heard the parts are expensive but I've also heard they usually run 1,000 - 1,500 hours without a problem if maintained. I'd be interested in learning more about the lube issue. Just switched to synthetic 30W from dino.

I'm with K7LN. It's not that the engines themselves are any worse that other engines. It's the parts availability and cost.

I do like Kohler engines. I've actually never owned anything with a Honda engine, but everyone I've talked to likes them.

As for the OP's question between Onan and B&S... The Onan may outperform or outlast the B&S, but when the first thing goes wrong the B&S will be nice to have.

 

[oldnslo]

oldnslo, you got me worried since I'm over 700 hours on my Onan engine. For 19 years I ran straight 30 weight, and have now changed over to a 15-30. Any gut feel on if that multigrade oil will help with the problem you talked about, or is it just a matter of how many hours it's been run in the cold? Here in NC, it gets out in the cold an average of once a winter.

Pete

Pete,
I wish I had a good answer to that question. I helped one guy put a short block on his and we also installed a oil pressure gauge at the same time. Short block he purchased required using the original oil pump assembly. On initial startup his oil pressure was real low around 8 - 12 PSI at 1/3 - 1/2 throttle. We took the relief valve apart and inspected it for debris etc. Could find nothing reassembled the unit and it was still low. We then adjusted it up to factory specs plus a hair or two. That was about 5 - 6 years ago and he still has good oil pressure at it is running fine.

I don't like to base assumptions on one unit but it looked like the oil pressure may have been set at the low end from day one and as the engine wore the pressure dropped even further. On all three of the engines I have seen the cam bearing next to the timing gear is the that failed. The crank and con rod bearings where not damaged on any of them.


Brian,
As to the OP question, I wasn't sure if he was looking at repowering his tractor or purchasing a unit with the motor in it. I know my sons 400 had the option of a Honda retro kit. Sorry if this offended anyone.

Roy

 

[art]

There was a company doing the Honda engine retrofit for the 318 as well as the Cadets.

I'd go with that engine over the other choices! The Briggs would give you about the same fuel economy as the older Kohler engine and they are right about briggs parts! The onans when right have given good longevity over the briggs and the torque is normally higher on the onan.

 

[brain55]

Sorry Roy, I wasn't offended. I was just trying to make the point that I would have picked the Honda too.

Brian

 

[cmkh3]

So my guess is that the group thinks the Honda would be a better choice? Jim's tractor said that the Vanguard would be a better choice based on if or when something goes wrong Honda parts are expensive and harder to get. Kohler didn't enter the picture.
Small Engine Warehouse only lists re-power kits using Vanguard 18 or 23 hp engines. So in a John Deere 318 replacing the engine with what?

 

[Iplayfarmer]

...So in a John Deere 318 replacing the engine with what?

Nearly all of these small engines bolt up to the same pattern. If the price is similar, go bigger.

 

[D7E]

I've never been too happy with briggs in mowers or any other app and must admit that our newer honda's on grain augers/Water pumps have not been trouble free either . Kohler do seem to have been best for us .
A bit off the topic but we got fed up with spending hundreds of dollars servicing honda's every year to keep them running reliably and out of frustration bought 2 chinese engines for 1/4 of the price with the thought that if they fail after 1 year it's only what we would spend every year on the honda's . Amazingly 3 years later the chinese are still going strong and have not spent a penny on them . I am amazed Considering the unfair treatment / Dirty and dusty conditions and extreme temps like -30 that they have to work in !

 

[coobie]

Wow, no good opinions on the Onans. I've had mine for 17 years and 640 hours with out a hitch (knock on wood). Used it to plow snow for years and it gets pretty cold here in CT. I have heard the parts are expensive but I've also heard they usually run 1,000 - 1,500 hours without a problem if maintained. I'd be interested in learning more about the lube issue. Just switched to synthetic 30W from dino.

+1 on the Onans.My 1996 ingersoll 4020 has a 20Hp.onan with 540 hours,purrs like a kitten.coobie

 

[Mickey_Fx]

Which engine is better for hard use in a John Deere 318 and why?
Briggs & Stratton Vanguard 23 hp
or
Onan P218

The Onan flat twin has been out of production for close to 10 yrs. Was a good rugged engine in its day but that day has passed. Ownership of the Onan brand has changed several times over the years. While rugged, it wasn't particularly quiet mechanically speaking.

Until the engine went out of production, that engine was used in Onan's gensets, the most popular genset in the RV industry. I still have one of these gensets.

I had a JD 318 and it had ~1800 hrs on the engine when the tractor walked away. Did have the Gov fail on the engine and as others have mentioned, parts were spendy. The Gov repair was a DYI effort and seemed to recall I spent something like $150 on parts including a cam bearing that got damaged during the cam removal. Cam bearing was a machined Al ring with a price tag of $25. Local JD dealer, a large shop, was of little help as their small engine mechanic had never had to tear an engine down to the level that was necessary to repair the Gov.

I'm not a particular big fan of B&S but do have an old GT with a flat twin B&S that has been doing service for about 30 yrs. Only issue I've ever had with it was once or twice the points oxidized to the point I needed to service them. That required the removal of the intake manifold to get access. It's been a great engine as far as reliability is concerned.

I'd not have a problem with going with an B&S if that was the only engine you can find that has been modified to work in the JD chassis.

 

[ChuckinNH]

I hear a lot of bad press about the Briggs engines, but my experience has not supported that. I had a 12.5 hp lower end (no oil filter) Briggs of 1989 vintage that gave me 1485 hours of great service before I traded it in in fine shape. I did change the oil every 25 hours, and take care of it in general. I now have a 20hp Kohler Command engine, and I replaced the fuel pump at 250 hours, and the starter at 500 hours so far. (650 hours on it now) Which is the better engine? I believe that barring plastic internal parts (ugh!) that lower end engines just require more careful attention usually, and aren't quite as forgiving. The bottom line for me is that I will probably want to trade for something new, and shiny before I have trouble with any of them!

 

[Jim Thompson]

I hear a lot of bad press about the Briggs engines, but my experience has not supported that. I had a 12.5 hp lower end (no oil filter) Briggs of 1989 vintage that gave me 1485 hours of great service before I traded it in in fine shape. I did change the oil every 25 hours, and take care of it in general. I now have a 20hp Kohler Command engine, and I replaced the fuel pump at 250 hours, and the starter at 500 hours so far. (650 hours on it now) Which is the better engine? I believe that barring plastic internal parts (ugh!) that lower end engines just require more careful attention usually, and aren't quite as forgiving. The bottom line for me is that I will probably want to trade for something new, and shiny before I have trouble with any of them!

I've used Kohler Command engines for years with great satisfaction. You're right about getting good service from Briggs engines if properly maintained, but until the last five years or so Briggs didn't really make a commercial grade engine with pressure lube and oil filtration. They did put oil pumps and filters on several engines, but the pump just recirculated the oil from the sump through the filter and back in to the sump.

I, too, have experienced some problems with the starters made by Denso who is probably the largest manufacturer of starters for the outdoor power equipment market - used by Kohler, Kawasaki and others. I usually just replace the solenoid and all is well.

The fuel pumps used by Kohler are made by Mikuni and also widely used by other engine manufacturers. The problem with them is usually dirt or varnish from old gas and/or neglected fuel filters.

The only problem I've had with the Kohler Command engines themselves is a blown head gasket at about 1000 hours on a 25 hp horizontal on my now 11 year old Grasshopper. Kohler did have some problems hydraulic lifters, bent push rods and with camshafts wearing one lobe flat. Ive seen other people with these problems. I attribute most of these problems to running the wrong oil or not changing it often enough. It is critical to run the recommended viscosity oil or the lifters will not function properly and ugly things happen to your push rods.

Jim

 

[ChuckinNH]

I've used Kohler Command engines for years with great satisfaction. You're right about getting good service from Briggs engines if properly maintained, but until the last five years or so Briggs didn't really make a commercial grade engine with pressure lube and oil filtration. They did put oil pumps and filters on several engines, but the pump just recirculated the oil from the sump through the filter and back in to the sump.

I, too, have experienced some problems with the starters made by Denso who is probably the largest manufacturer of starters for the outdoor power equipment market - used by Kohler, Kawasaki and others. I usually just replace the solenoid and all is well.

The fuel pumps used by Kohler are made by Mikuni and also widely used by other engine manufacturers. The problem with them is usually dirt or varnish from old gas and/or neglected fuel filters.

The only problem I've had with the Kohler Command engines themselves is a blown head gasket at about 1000 hours on a 25 hp horizontal on my now 11 year old Grasshopper. Kohler did have some problems hydraulic lifters, bent push rods and with camshafts wearing one lobe flat. Ive seen other people with these problems. I attribute most of these problems to running the wrong oil or not changing it often enough. It is critical to run the recommended viscosity oil or the lifters will not function properly and ugly things happen to your push rods.

Jim

Very informative post! I only changed the whole starter because it was easier for me to get, and cost only $10 more than just the solonoid (the only real problem) My fuel pump was funny.... there is a part that goes through a slot in another arm that is "staked" in place. The factory "stake" seemed shallow, and eventually the part slipped through the arm, causing other damage. The only other problem I've ever had with that engine is that sometimes a new oil filter will loosen up after being installed correctly with oil on the seal, etc. Maybe I'm just getting weak in my old age?