Wheel loader pairing up with lightweight forestry mulcher, can it work ?.

[Arkan]

Hello everyone .Until my acc was activated i have been reading other peoples post here in hope to search something that could help me,and i did,but not much honestly.It would mean allot if someone can help me out for this situation i have ,well of my friend ,but since we work together ,use machines (i am farmer),it's more or less same.
So ,as name of the thread say,he owns wheel loader,not tractor ,but industrial loader ,15 tons weight ,bucket with teeth for loading dirt,gravel,whatever.We both have in plan to equip that loader with pto tractor powered lightweight forestry mulcher (tractor pto powered,because there is many used ones for cheaper price,than hydraulic operated ones,which are very rare in my country),and lightweight because honestly neither he nor i will have anything thicker than 1 or 2 inches max at ground level to mulch,moustly we will use it for mulching high bushes,which are very thick ,many branches ,but nothing thicker than as i say 1 inch in 99% situations,so pretty easy work,but because those bushes are high ,4-5 meters ,loader with mulcher in front instead of bucket would do awesome work at first mulching higher spots ,then lower ones.Honestly if tractor would try to mulch something that high ,idk ,it would be hard,i mean mulcher connected on tractor at the back of machine on 3 point,powered by pto.
So anyway,i am sorry i like to explain better what i need so peoples understand easily,i guess it's time for numbers now,and where our real problem is.
Loader have 3 hydraulic pumps,but only important one is main one ,it's gear type and can deliver max flow of 260 liter per minute(70 gallons) ,but at only 140-160 bar of pressure(2100-2300psi),also displacement of pump is i think 133 cubic centimeters (8.1 cubic inch).
We trying to figure out how to pair that pump with hydraulic motor,which one ,size ,type ?.Those tractor pto powered mulchers,they all need +- 450-550 rpm at pto(it can be low as 300 in our case) ,so that would be our starting point i guess,hydraulic motor should have that speed,or idk ,maybe it can be adjusted ?,we try to avoid oil heating as much as possible.Also,since we don't need high speed of hydraulic motor ,i checked on net ,highest torque hydro motors are piston radial types ,could that be best option for us ?,to pull max power out of that loader pump ?.He found one motor of that type for sale used one ,it's piston radial,150 cc ,guy that sells it say it's max rpm is 500.

Well,i guess this is more or less everything,i am sorry for small novel above ,i hope someone can helps us out.

 

[Industrial Toys]

It would have been interesting to mention the make and model of loader.

You need to be aware of heat. You don't want to fry the EXPENSIVE drive train of the loader. HEAT is a number one killer. Another issue to consider is whether the machine can be operated (continuously) at slow speed with high engine RPMs.

A friend of mine does stuff like this all the time and it's amazing how many flow gauges and equipment is required to figure all this stuff out before you make a big mistake.

 

[crashz]

I agree. That whole system is designed to run the main hydraulics of the loader, filling large cylinders relatively quickly. But that is intermittent and each cylinder is a huge heat sink. The motor will be continuous and will heat up the system quickly.

I would either use an auxiliary pump on the loader or add a belt drive pump and separate reservoir. Having a separate system will isolate the loader hydraulics, reducing the risk of damaging the loader and if a line breaks, the loader is completely un-affected.

 

[Arkan]

Loader is old type 1990 year produced,i am from Europe,Serbia.He does not have hydraulic drive if u mean on that,he use this transmission zf 4pw 45h1.We are not planning to use it for professional work,few acres now and then,nothing special.He plans to add hydraulic oil cooler,either oil-water type or oil air type ,he will see what's better.

 

[Rustyiron]

Is that picture the actual machine? If it's close to that size, I might approach it in the way wheel loaders and snow blowing is handled - with and auxiliary motor and pto/clutch. This would remove all guesswork as far as damaging the loader in any way by tapping into its hydraulic system that as the other guys have mentioned was not intended to be a hydraulic power plant for auxiliary attachments beyond possibly a pair of cylinders on a "4 in 1" bucket.
That's definitely enough machine to carry this arrangement easily. There are companies here in the United States that sell pto/clutch units that have standard bellhousing bolt patterns for 540 or 1000 (or both) rpms. I can look for a link if you like.

 

[Rustyiron]

Here's what it looks like.
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[Industrial Toys]

It's also not exactly an off the beaten path machine. Mostly suited for hard level ground.

 

[Xfaxman]

Does the wheel loader have a quick coupler for the bucket?

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[Arkan]

@Rustyiron Yes it's exact machine ,only friend loader have Cummins engine ,195-200hp,that on picture is 160hp engine.I not understand u very well,u mean maybe something like this ?.engine ,actual engine in front to power that mulcher with its own pump and hydro motor ?.
Wheel Loader | Tiger Mowers

@IndustrialToys We not have hills here ,everything is flat ,but i forgot to mention,loader would clear mainly farming fields ,that were not used for over decade and they grown in that wild bushes.So no hard ground for him,plus it have chains for tires ,not snow chains ,but those chains like we see when loaders are working near smelting furnaces or idk how to explain,they cover tire almost completely,protect it from anything.

Btw loader is lifting +-6 tons easily ,we lifted whole tractor with it,and maximum lifting capacity is 14 tons,ofc no point trying lifting that it would just lift his rear end.I see on net many smaller loaders with similar operations ,no extra engine ,just their own hydraulics,we would not allow ofc for hydraulic oil to overheat.Oil coolant is a must,but mainly more or less for our own needs,we try not to invest allot of money,u wouldn't believe how much this loader was cost,just to buy tractor mulcher and some hydraulic motor(both used ,not new) ,it would be maybe even expensive as much as whole loader.
We planned to buy just some hydro motor and mulcher,with that price invested,if we just mulched what we have for us ,it would pay off it self easily.Because companies that are doing this type of job ,are just far tooo much expensive here,we called several of them ,and prices are moustly same,expensive.
Anyway if it can't work,loader was only something as idea,due to his lifting boom it would really make job much easier ,well we can still use tractor ,but just as i mention before,those bushes are very high,and branches are mixed up somehow,it's all connected,hard to mulch it from ground level.

@Xfaxman Yes,but it's not mounted on him,we didn't have use for it,we use just one bucket with teeth on it in V shape.

 

[Rustyiron]

@Rustyiron Yes it's exact machine ,only friend loader have Cummins engine ,195-200hp,that on picture is 160hp engine.I not understand u very well,u mean maybe something like this ?.engine ,actual engine in front to power that mulcher with its own pump and hydro motor ?.
Wheel Loader | Tiger Mowers

Yes, another engine but mechanical not hydraulic pump/motor.
But your link shows a self contained engine driving a hydraulic pump powering the arm mower. I am thinking a "mechanically" (pto) driven shaft to your modified 3 point mulcher from an additional motor all mounted in some frame that was either pinned on in place OF the bucket or if you had a "fast mount" such as Xfaxman pictured.

This picture is as close as I can find. I think the approximate size of this road milling attachment would be very similar to a tractor driven mulcher and a motor to drive it. If you have not seen a road milling machine, it's very similar to a forestry mulcher in the action of the cutting.

 

[Arkan]

Uh oh,that would be very expensive option ,il give him idea ,but i think we will try to do it with tractor after all.
Milling road is i think harder job for machine than lightweight mulcher ,i was thinking something 2 meters wide,this road miller have some 1 meter.
On this link there is some data about flow and pressure required,but still that is some heavy rotor mulchers if it can cut up to 8 inches wood.
MINIFORST cl - Forestry mulcher for skid steer loader
I can't help but wondering how can these little skid steer machines work with those heavy type mulchers ?,there is no way they have more powerful hydraulic than loader.


And some loaders also have same heavy mulcher types on them:

DAF-18D - Most Efficient Forestry Mulching Attachment for 75 hp Skid-steers or CTL and up - YouTube.

 

[Arkan]

Uh oh,that would be very expensive option ,il give him idea ,but i think we will try to do it with tractor after all.
Milling road is i think harder job for machine than lightweight mulcher ,i was thinking something 2 meters wide,this road miller have some 1 meter.
On this link there is some data about flow and pressure required,but still that is some heavy rotor mulchers if it can cut up to 8 inches wood.
MINIFORST cl - Forestry mulcher for skid steer loader
I can't help but wondering how can these little skid steer machines work with those heavy type mulchers ?,there is no way they have more powerful hydraulic than loader.


And some loaders also have same heavy mulcher types on them:

DAF-18D - Most Efficient Forestry Mulching Attachment for 75 hp Skid-steers or CTL and up - YouTube.

Edit:These would be type of rotors on lightweight mulchers we are interested in ,some 2 meters wide.

 

[Fallon]

Those 2 pictures look more like flail mowers than a forestry mulcher. Flex mounted hammers rather than hard mounted teeth. My Peruzzo Brush Bull flail is setup like that & will chew up wrist sized trees pretty well.

Those skid steers generally have more HP than your loader. Way more than they can use driving or running the loader as they are designed for high flow high power implements. The dedicated mulching machines look like a funky skidsteer but have double or triple the engine hanging out the back.

 

[Arkan]

I am sorry my english is not perfect ,i just used word lightweight ,as smaller rotor size, smaller weight of rotor,smaller hp required to run it.
On this video it's exact thing ,same rotor have,same hammers on it ,like on pictures in my post above.Although he is cutting thicker material that i would have job for it,that's for sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3FrfSh3_HI&ab_channel=OpgBorevković
Those type of ''lightweight'' mulchers 2-2.5 meter wide ,that are tractor pto powered ,are requiring some 70-100 engine hp.

Here on picture bellow are some ''bushes'' we would have to cut with mulcher,it's much thinner than those on video,this on picture is 1 or 2 fingers thick max and ground level,everything above is just branches.BUT ,that devil thing grow 4-5 + meters in height and it's like connected ,if u cut it at ground level it doesn't crash to ground ,it stay above,u can make tunnels trough it with tractor.That's why it need to be on some type of arm ,like excavator ,or in our case ,in front of loader instead bucket.So we cut first higher points,than lower.
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[Industrial Toys]

If it's a one time job, why not just rent or hire the right equipment?

 

[Arkan]

It's not really,we do need mulcher allot on our farm field,we plan to buy it anyway for our tractors,but for that job only loader or some equipment that can lift mulcher high can do the job,or at least easily,like excavator or idk.Or ofc ,heavy forest beasts that mulch trees and everything on their path ,something like buldozers with mulchers in front,but it would be funny to use something that powerfull ,and expensive ofc,to just mulch thin bushes that are complicated due to their height and intertwined branches....Companies we called ,more or less have all simillar prices +- 1000 euro per hectare ,maybe it's cheap to someone ,but to us ,not really.Money we would need to pay for someone to do that job for us would be more or less similar,or even more, than to equip our loader with some used mulcher, hydraulic motor ,oil coolant and whatever is needed for it to do that job.We are looking it that way,but if that loader is no capable of working with lightweight mulcher we will pay someone to do it,we will lose money but....Tractor is i think out of option,i watched today near road while i was going to town some company that are maintaining them in my country,they cut trees near roads ,bushes ,repair roads,traffic signs etc.They used tractor with pto driven mulcher at the back, mulching same bushes we would have to,and tractor cannot push all that material ,mulcher cut's everything near ground perfectly,but at cab height nothing is happening,tractor is pushing all that material into more bushes ,and eventually he spin tires or damage machine.They later bring mulcher that is on arm at the back of tractor ,and they did it easily ,but we do not need that type of mulcher,we won't buy it for that one time job.
We can re-sell hydraulic motor after the job is done,but for 400-600 euro ,hardly.Oil coolant is nothing but only positive upgrade for loader so he will stay on it for sure.And mulcher as most expensive thing in that, to call it upgrade of loader to mulch bushes ,as i say,he will be used allot on our farm fields.

 

[Industrial Toys]

And you don't have access to a larger tractor? I mean 3ph stuff sucks, but it would work, going backwards.

If I had a larger tractor, I always wanted a MERICRUSHER. Pulverizes anything including stone! But pricey!

ONE of my main lessons in life, is not to try and REINVENT the WHEEL!

 

[Rustyiron]

Arkan - you misunderstood me, my picture only represented the arrangement or the idea of an auxiliary engine to power your mower/mulcher leaving the hydraulic system on your loader alone.

 

[Rustyiron]

Arkan - you misunderstood me, my picture only represented the arrangement or the idea of an auxiliary engine to power your mower/mulcher leaving the hydraulic system on your loader alone.

 

[oldnslo]

Arkan,
With 260 rpm flow you could drive a 472 cc per revolution motor at 550 RPM or a 520 cc per revolution motor at 500 RPM. The concern or unknown is do you have the cooling capacity to run the full 260 rpm without over heating your oil.

Is this the same pump that raises and lowers the bucket? If yes then your cutter head speed will change every time you raise and lower the bucket.