What type of water pump do I need?

rogdan · Apr 12, 2007

I want to use a couple of small spring ponds for lawn/garden watering and fill a small pool later this summer and spare our well. I would like to have electric over gas but could live with either. I also want the pump near the house pulling and not at the pond(s).
Pond #1 is up the hill about 100 yards and has a 1/2" line in it that will gravity feed to the house (no pressure)
Pond #2 would be the primary as it sustains better over the summer. It is about 150 yards away and slightly down hill requiring a some lift.
I don't intend to hook up a sprinkler system but use a hose as needed to water myself. I've looked at a few online retailers:
Harbor Freight Tools
Tractor Supply Company - Pumps: Transfer Pumps & Accessories
Any advice would be appreciated.

WayneB · Apr 12, 2007

Is it possible to locate the pump at the pond and then push the water toward the house. I think if it is just about any shallow well jet pump would satisfy your need.

I have a field well that I pump water around the place for the different gardens and use a Sears hydroglass jet pump 3/4 hp and small pressure tank. It is located at the well and I have never had a problem getting water around. I have run black 3/4 plastic pipe around the place and only use one line at a time.

The one from Harbor Freight would be about the same size. Again that is if you can push the water.

RonMar · Apr 12, 2007

Pumps are better at pushing than pulling. Any small leak in the line that can let in air can break the pump prime and can be HARD to locate and repair. your best bet for a pump/waterline in suction sounds like the pond that is uphill. Gravity would help keep a slight pressure on the pump inlet so any small holes might be tollerated.

With the pump at the source, a pinhole in the water line would be no problem and much easier to locate. On an above ground or shallow buried line, look for the wet spot or where the grass is growing a little greener/better.

Unfortunatly the pump near the source means several hundred feet of electrical cable. The wireing would probably cost more than the pump, pressure tank and pipe to the house combined. IF using suction that 150 yard distance, you will of course need rigid PVC for this to keep from sucking it flat as the pump pulls the water to it against gravity and pipe friction. I would reccomend a foot valve(check valve) at the pond end to keep any small leak from letting the water flow back into the pond. A "T" with a valve at the pump inlet would allow you to easilly prime(or re-prime) the suction pipe(perhaps with water gravity fed from the upper pond) before you ever turned on the pump.

Ron

rogdan · Apr 13, 2007

Thank you Wayne and Ron,
Your responses tell me to locate the pump at the source so that takes me to the gas powered pumps as I don't want to bury wire or have it around the kids. This would be occassional warm weather use so a gas pump would be okay as I plan the lines above ground lines as well. I will likely just choose the larger pond as it is the best source and is easier to access.
So with a gas powered pump with a garden hose at the other end do I want one with a small reserve which is what I think Wayne suggested or the models with more GPM and no tank? I figured that the tankless models were for quick transfers to tanks ect.. and not what I have in mind.

WayneB · Apr 13, 2007

rogdan said:
Thank you Wayne and Ron,
Your responses tell me to locate the pump at the source so that takes me to the gas powered pumps as I don't want to bury wire or have it around the kids.

Not sure just how far you are talking but if it was me I would consider running a power line to the location. You can get a direct bury line and can put it a foot under ground and be okay. As a onetime installation it isn't all that bad. You might even find other uses for the electrical out there by the pond. I guess it is all up to the amount of work to accomplish the job.

This would be occassional warm weather use so a gas pump would be okay as I plan the lines above ground lines as well. I will likely just choose the larger pond as it is the best source and is easier to access.

I am not too sure what gas pump you are looking at, but most of the ones I have seen are costly and you will need to regulate the pressure you are putting into the line and using with normal garden hoses. Most of the ones I have seen were used to move large volumes of wastewater and not for watering plants and what have you.

So with a gas powered pump with a garden hose at the other end do I want one with a small reserve which is what I think Wayne suggested or the models with more GPM and no tank? I figured that the tankless models were for quick transfers to tanks ect.. and not what I have in mind.

Wayne

RonMar · Apr 14, 2007

Gas pumps(or most pumps for that matter), don't like to have their flow interrupted(deadheaded). This means that either the hose has to stay full on/open at the end while you walk back and forth to start the pump(waste of water) or you will need some sort of relief valve at the pump set at a particular pressure. With a relief valve, when the set pressure is met, such as when you shut off the nozzel at the end of the hose, the valve at the pump opens and dumps water back into the pond. The valve has to be large enough to accept the full rated flow of the pump otherwise it won't keep the pressure under control. I would also reccomend a foot valve on the end of the submerged suction line to maintain prime in the pump. Further I would reccomend a manual bypass valve alongside the relief bypass. This will allow you to start the pump under no load(much easier) and warm up and cooldown the engine under reduced load(not making pressure). See attached drawing...

I agree that an electric pump with direct bury cable would probably be better in the long run. How many seasons you plan on drawing this water? Is this gas pump going to set out in the weather yearound? That will mean a new pump every few years. A properly installed electric with a direct buried pipe and wire will last for many many years. This run to a pressure tank with a switch and then on to wherever you want to put faucets or even buried automatic sprinklers, would give you on demand water whenever you opened the spigot, without a trip to the pond toteing very expensive gas to get the pump running. It would also mean not having to disassemble the pump and service/store it every winter...

I didn't look at your profile, do you have a tractor? If so, you might could pull the pipe and cable thru the ground with a single shank ripper in an afternoon. Search the forums for "pipe pulling" or some such as there have been several topics on this subject.

Good Luck

turnkey4099 · Apr 16, 2007

RonMar said:
Gas pumps(or most pumps for that matter), don't like to have their flow interrupted(deadheaded). This means that either the hose has to stay full on/open at the end while you walk back and forth to start the pump(waste of water) or you will need some sort of relief valve at the pump set at a particular pressure. With a relief valve, when the set pressure is met, such as when you shut off the nozzel at the end of the hose, the valve at the pump opens and dumps water back into the pond. The valve has to be large enough to accept the full rated flow of the pump otherwise it won't keep the pressure under control. I would also reccomend a foot valve on the end of the submerged suction line to maintain prime in the pump. Further I would reccomend a manual bypass valve alongside the relief bypass. This will allow you to start the pump under no load(much easier) and warm up and cooldown the engine under reduced load(not making pressure). See attached drawing...

I agree that an electric pump with direct bury cable would probably be better in the long run. How many seasons you plan on drawing this water? Is this gas pump going to set out in the weather yearound? That will mean a new pump every few years. A properly installed electric with a direct buried pipe and wire will last for many many years. This run to a pressure tank with a switch and then on to wherever you want to put faucets or even buried automatic sprinklers, would give you on demand water whenever you opened the spigot, without a trip to the pond toteing very expensive gas to get the pump running. It would also mean not having to disassemble the pump and service/store it every winter...

I didn't look at your profile, do you have a tractor? If so, you might could pull the pipe and cable thru the ground with a single shank ripper in an afternoon. Search the forums for "pipe pulling" or some such as there have been several topics on this subject.

Good Luck

I agree. For simplicity, ease of installation, minimum maintenance a cheap shallow well pump with tank at the source is the best solution. I used to use an gas pump (no tank/pressure control) sitting about 10 ft above my source. Lots of fun keeping it primed, running to the edge of the property to start/shut down, etc. Replaced it with an electric 1hp and moved the source up stream. Still had the fun of priming but the on/off was a switch on the back porch.

Harry K

_RaT_ · Apr 16, 2007

Centrifical pumps do very well when you diminsih their outlet, in fact, they actually load less. While you never want to eliminate the flow, throttling it down is not an issue. For more on that, check out Cycle Stop Valves, Inc.

You will have to put the pump at the lake, it would be almost impossible to pull water that distance and even if you could, you would have to size the pipe considerably larger since suction side should not exceed 1.5 ft per second in the pipe. There are many decent small gas powered pumps that you could utilize. Don't worry about choking off the outlet to supply only what you need. A small electric or gas centrifical pump will need about 1 gpm flow at all times. Having a strainer foot valve pretty much eliminates the prime problems people are talking about other the initial prime. A check valve at the pump helps also.

rogdan · Apr 18, 2007

You guys have got me back on track with electric now and I do have a tractor to help with the install. I just caught a typo in my initial post in that the pond I am going to use now is 150 feet not yards away. The other source is 150 yards but I have ruled it out.
So would one of those 1hp pumps with a 5 gallon tank do the job if I set up as described?. A concern is this is a spring fed and run off fed pond with vegetation ect.. These are listed as "clear water" pumps and I figure to pick up some sediment or such even with a screen on the pick up end.
Thanks, this is the water pump 101 I needed.

WayneB · Apr 18, 2007

rogdan said:
You guys have got me back on track with electric now and I do have a tractor to help with the install. I just caught a typo in my initial post in that the pond I am going to use now is 150 feet not yards away. The other source is 150 yards but I have ruled it out.
So would one of those 1hp pumps with a 5 gallon tank do the job if I set up as described?. A concern is this is a spring fed and run off fed pond with vegetation ect.. These are listed as "clear water" pumps and I figure to pick up some sediment or such even with a screen on the pick up end.
Thanks, this is the water pump 101 I needed.

Okay Roger, I think what I would do is purchase a 3/4HP or larger jet pump and a small pressure tank. You will also need a foot valve and 1/1/4" flex pipe that will be used on the incoming side of the pump. On the output / delivery side I would include a shut-off valve (manual) and then fixtures (connections) to handle the pipe that you are going to use to bring the water up to the house area. If you wish you can tee-off from the poly along the way and add facets for attaching hoses or run lines to different areas.

You will have to figure some method of keeping the foot valve off from the bottom of the pond. You could run a stake into the bottom and then tie off the foot valve 6 or 8 inches from the bottom. This type of pump and setup would be the cheapest and easiest installation. I think at Home Depot they have systems you can buy that come with the pump attached to a small tank, then all you have to buy is the foot valve and flex pipe along wth the poly that you are going to use to feed the water out.

On my pumps I went to a swiming pool place and got a couple of pieces of the flex pipe they use for the in ground pool installations. I think I got two 15 foot pieces for around 10 dollars.

If you wanted you could purchase a deep well pump and then run a 1/12" or 11/4” pipe from the pump up to your house area and then install a storage type tank. This will require that you run 240 VAC to the pond to run the pump. If you go this direction it might be good to attach the electrical wiring directly to the poly pipe while putting it in the trench.

The advantage of this is you could install a 40 to 80 gallon storage tank and it would permit you to run more hoses at the same time with good water pressure.

These pumps will push water further than 150 feet. Many are pumping water up from 400 feet or deeper. Problem is the pump expensive, the delivery pipe has to be much larger and harder to handle during installation.

The pump would be placed into the pond and you will have to make sure you support it off from the bottom.

Hope this is helpful

Wayne