What should I ask about geothermal?

   / What should I ask about geothermal? #1  

pennwalk

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
2,463
Location
Lancaster PA
Tractor
Yanmar 186D
We Have an older house that has oil fired forced hot air heating and whole house electric A/C. the coil on the A/C is out and the A/C system is old. The furnace is old loud and not that efficient. Every body tells us that long run we should be concerned about leakage from our 1000 gal underground oil tank. It all adds up to our being ready for an upgrade. The heating and airconditioning guys have been suggesting either geothermal or heatpump over gas furnace. The heatpump/furnace combination sounds pretty conventional but what are the pitfalls to the geothermal system?

Chris
 
   / What should I ask about geothermal? #2  
Biggest pitfall for Geothermal system is the up front cost /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Also there will probably be digging in the yard to bury the loop for the geothermal system unless you happen to have 2 wells, then you can suck water out of one and dump it in the other one.

Ben
 
   / What should I ask about geothermal? #3  
A friend of ours has geothermal and he loves how well it works and the low utility bills. However, he said maintenance is eating the savings due to parts being corroded by the water he is using. His system was only 8 years old and ate itself up. So, if I were considering geothermal, I would investigate that issue and how it is dealt with in your area, what brands/models are susceptible to that, etc...
 
   / What should I ask about geothermal? #4  
What do you think about the vertical systems, where they drill multiple shafts, close together at the top, but angled away fron each other, then put long skinny loops in the shafts?
.
 
   / What should I ask about geothermal? #5  
I'll be breaking ground on new home construction next summer and have decided that geothermal is the only way to go, despite the initial equipment costs. I see three major advantages in that utility bills for heating, cooling, and hot water will be dramatically reduced, the resale value of the house will be higher, and thirdly (perhaps most importantly) these are the most environmentally friendly systems.

The problems that the previous poster have alluded to are with "open loop" systems. In these systems the quality of the water is of critical concern. The water source for an open loop system must be thoroughly tested beforehand to make sure that its not corrosive to the system. Of course, water quality has a way of changing over the years, and problems could develop later on even though the water seemed ok to start out with. To me, this is a major disadvantage to open loop systems. Better, it seems, would be to go with a "closed loop" system. In these systems the heat exchange fluid (primarily water with additives) is recirculated and never has to be replaced or replenished, barring of course a leak somewhere in the system. In a closed loop system there are two methods of installing the underground loops....vertical or horizontal installations. The method you choose depends on how large your parcel of property is. Vertical installations are used where the parcel is small, and the pipes are installed in much the same way as a well would be installed. This is the more expensive alternative since a well driller has to be brought in to poke the holes for the pipe, but it may be the only alternative if you don't have the room for a horizontal installation. For horizontal installations you only need to dig a trench to lay the pipe in. If your handy with a backhoe, you could even do this part of the job yourself.

Another important consideration is the material that the pipe is made out of, since it is essentially acting as a heat exchanger. Considerations include the type of material that the pipe is made out of as well as the surface area of the pipe. You should discuss this issue with your local supplier. From what I've read, the "slinky" style piping may be the way to go.

There are a few things that you may want to ask your installation company. Do they have a trade association membership? Where and how have their installers' been trained? What are the terms of the warranty? What, if any, are the owners responsibility for routine maintenance? Do they have references and other locally installed systems? Does the installer or owner of the company have geothermal installed in their own home or business?
At the very least, I would contact at least three companies for an adequate comparison.

Another thing to look into is whether or not your state offers a tax or other incentive for installing geothermal heating/cooling. Again, your local installers may be able to answer this for you.

Looking forward to what others have to say about this. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

....Tony
 
   / What should I ask about geothermal? #6  
TonyV hit on many of the key points. Initial cost is relatively high, about 3 to 4 times that of an air-to-air heat pump system.

The type of loop, as Tony mentioned, is a big factor. The open loop schemes do suffer high failure rates, not only due to corrosion, but also silting and clogging due to waternborne contaminants.

Closed loop is the better way to go. Horizontal trenching is one method. This requires a trench, 4' deep or more, with 1 to 4 pipes in the trench. You will need about 400-500' of pipe per ton of heat pump capacity. With multiple pipes in the trench, this runs more on the longer side. I just did a 3.5 ton system with a 475' of pipe with 4 runs in the trench.

Slinky systems use the same pipe, with 3-5' diameter coils spread out flat over a large area. While they are easier to install, they require a large area to be dug up For example, a 3.5 ton slinky would require an excavation 3' wide, 6' deep and 475' long. In both horizontal and slinky installations, fine fill (screenings, typically 40 to 60 tons) are required around the pipe to better couple the pipe to the ground due to air pockets.

Vertical systems use a bore hole, similar to a well, with a "U" pipe loop inserted. The hole is then filled with a cement grout to hold the pipe and thermally couple the pipe to the ground. The same 3.5 ton would require 4 holes, 6" to 8" diameter, each 150' deep. Vertical has the advantage of requiring the smallest land area, but is the most expensive to install.

Last is a closed loop pond system. This uses a large and deep enough pond for the source. Pipe is laid on the bottom of the pond and runs closed loop, so the pond water is never introduced to the system. This can be the most economical to install - if you have a pond.

The pipe that is used is plastic polyethelene pipe. The thermal conductivity of the plastic is not a big issue since the thermal conductivity of the ground is much lower, and the limiting factor. Even if you used copper tubing, there would be little improvement in heat transfer. A "geothermal" pipe is sold for the application. It is basically the same as plastic well piping, but it is delivered cleaned and sealed, and is rated for 160 PSI. The loop pressure rarely exceeds 40 PSI or so, but the higher pressure rating is used to protect the pipe from physical damage. All underground joints are a thermal fusion process that when done properly are leak free. Mechanical and metal components for the joints are not recommended underground, as metal can corrode and mechanical joints can fail.

The fluid is water with an antifreeze mix. The antifreeze is required since the water exiting the unit can be below 32 degrees during high heating damands in the winter. If allowed by code, methanol is used as an antifreeze, at 20% or so concentration. It has very good properties but is toxic if it leaks. Proplyene glycol is the other antifreeze used. The main disadvantage is is becomes more viscous at cold temperatures, and the heat carrying capacity is lower. These usually require bigger diameter piping and perhaps a larger flow circulation pump, both of which add to install costs. I would recommend using it only if local codes require.

The great benefits of geo units are reduced running costs, up to 50% lower, no defrosting required, long life and reliability due to the location of the equipment in the basement and out of the weather. Also most units can generate about 40% of your domestic hot water by recouping waste heat from the system. This adds to overall efficiency of the system.

I am a big advocate of geo systems, so I would say go ahead, but in TODAY's energy environment you should expect a 10 year payback. That could improve in the coming years. Also there is a "hugh" $ 300 tax credit in the new energy bill for geo systems. Also check at: http://www.geoexchange.org to see if your state has any programs for installing a system.

paul
 
   / What should I ask about geothermal? #7  
So far, I've installed geothermal in a commercial buildng and my house, which has one unit upstairs and one unit downstairs. All three units cool very efficiently, and heating is great at the shop and upstairs on the house. The downstairs on the house seems undersized since the heat rises and the upstairs unit does not run very much. These are all horizontal installations. According to an architect, people's objection to geo heating is that they put out a high volume of luke warm air rather than a normal volume of hot air. The two of the three that work well seem ok in that respect.

Electricity may turn out to be the energy bargain of the future since they can use coal to generate it. Already they are talking about 70% higher heating cost this winter, presumably for natural gas and heating oil.

If I ever do another geo, I'll find someone who installs them almost exclusively in hopes of avoiding another undersize problem like my downstairs unit.

John
 
   / What should I ask about geothermal? #8  
Your complaint sounds like a "typical" comment you hear about all heat pumps. It is true that all heat pumps feed what is considered warm air, compared to fossle fuel heating. With a lower temp of air, a greater volume is required to acheive the same BTU output. I have found that when customers complain about "warm" or "cold" air from a heat pump, it is an issue of ducting that a directed airflow can be "felt". The goal with heat pumps is to increase the number of registers and pay attention to air circulation to moderate the effect.

If you can hold the set temperature downstairs, the size is most likely correct.

paul
 
   / What should I ask about geothermal? #9  
I have an open loop geothermal unit. Here are some of my observations.

Be sure to check with your county health department before you try to install a dual well system. In my area it is not allowed due to the possibility of contaminates entering the water table.

Before you order a unit, find someone that has one, go to their house and listen to it from several different rooms. With the compressor in the unit they are louder than a heat pump with the compressor outside (at least mine is). I find that when the heating season starts I have to wear earplugs to get to sleep for at least the first month. My wife says the noise doesn't bother her much.

Check the brands against each other for efficiency, some are better than others.

We get our electric from a co-op, and they gave us a $750 rebate because of the geothermal, and we also had a seperate meter installed that reads the electric used by the unit only, (at the request of the co-op) and they come out and read it once a year and we get a rebate from that too.

In order to have an open loop system you need a large supply of water. Ours takes (on average) 150 gallons of water for every 30 minutes it is on (5 gal per minute). On average (depending on temperature and wind) it runs about 30 minutes then is off for about 45 minutes.

Usually the geothermal will raise the temperature about 20 degrees. If the temp in your house is 70 degrees, then the air coming out of the vent will be about 90 degrees +/-. If you have someone in your house that is skinny, delicate, or easily chilled, they may not like the heat output. My wife is only about 110 pounds and she usually has a blanket on her when she watches TV or sits for a while. I'm fine with the temperature, but then I'm better insulated than she is. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Of course all of these numbers may or may not apply to your situation, but it should give you an idea of what to expect. Our house is about 2138 sf, and we also heat the same amount of room in the basement ( but not as warm). We have 6" of fibreglass in the walls, and 14" of blown cellulose in the attic. Our electric usage (total electric) is about $120 @ month average. That also includes all of the 2500 sf barn electrics (heated with propane) and the constant running of 2 dehumidifiers.

Would I do it all over again? Probably, but I would go with a closed loop system and have the area around the furnace super insulated against noise.

Hope that helps you decide. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / What should I ask about geothermal? #10  
The basement will be dug in 10d on our new house, which will have a very interesing heating system: 2 closed vertical loop geo units plus a tiny dual fire forced air NG furnace for the basement only. We're building R2000, a Canadian super EE spec. Heat loss calcs showed we didn't need AC in the basement, so no need for a third geo unit (50,000 btu furnace). Our current house has a 54,000 btu water heater! Our POCO tells us we'll spend about 45% as much as all electric, and our electricity costs are among the cheapest in North America (hydro electric generation). Total cost is about Can$24,000 more than just high eff forced air NG furnaces, about 15 year payback, at current rates. NG is going way up if oil prices continue their climb, and eco weenies continue to demand NG fired electriciy generation.
 

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