What Pump Do I Have...

[WranglerX]

I am resurrecting a old DUERR 20 ton log splitter (year 1988) and its rated at 20 or 22 tons (whether you read manual or label on ram) ... It has a John S Barnes 717-0936 pump on it and data on pump no longer exists.....

And Barnes was bought out or incorporated with Haldex.... I can not really find any valid cross reference , and most information I can find is a Haldex 718-04127 pump replaces the Barns pump (by looking at various log splitter replacement parts)...

Anyway it has 4 inch ram and if I am running at 3000 psi it calculates out to about 18 tons at end of ram... Which is ok as it will split my dry oak well enough..

Guess real question is where is best place to attach a pressure gauge to get reading on pump output, kind of sort of want to know in case the pump dies what is safe replacement pump pressure for "system"..

Dale

 

[Dave M7040]

I am probably telling you stuff you already know but others will read this and may benefit.

The control valve for the splitter will have a relief valve for the splitter and the pump depends upon this relief valve for protection.

Theoretically the pump can develop high enough pressure to split its case as occurs when someone dead heads a pump which is blocking its discharge without a relief valve.

The splitter system will be Open Center which means continuous low pressure flow from the reservoir, through the pump, through the valve and back to the reservoir.

Pressure only builds up to high levels when directed into a cylinder and the cylinder reaches the end of its stroke.

Your gauge could be Tee'd into either cylinder line. You will be reading the relief valve pressure if the pump is working properly.

Dave M7040

 

[WranglerX]

I am probably telling you stuff you already know but others will read this and may benefit.

The control valve for the splitter will have a relief valve for the splitter and the pump depends upon this relief valve for protection.

Theoretically the pump can develop high enough pressure to split its case as occurs when someone dead heads a pump which is blocking its discharge without a relief valve.

The splitter system will be Open Center which means continuous low pressure flow from the reservoir, through the pump, through the valve and back to the reservoir.

Pressure only builds up to high levels when directed into a cylinder and the cylinder reaches the end of its stroke.

Your gauge could be Tee'd into either cylinder line. You will be reading the relief valve pressure if the pump is working properly.

Dave M7040

Aaah.... Clarity... I was under impression pump had relief valve for its protection, but I see that a pump that is capable of 3000 psi is just stating safe or capable operation range... I was under impression the unloader valve for the double gear pump was actually a pressure relief valve, my mistake.... I now see where "relief valve" is actual in directional control valve... This sketch is actuality in manual but it didn't register with me (till your comment) that the relief valve in directional control valve determined max pressure in system........



Yes, still new to hydraulics...

Dale

 

[BukitCase]

"Theoretically the pump can develop high enough pressure to split its case as occurs when someone dead heads a pump which is blocking its discharge without a relief valve."

Dave, it ain't "theory" - I have the pump off my 580B sitting under the bench with the center section split in half to verify.
Some dumb-azz (won't mention any names, but when I look in the mirror he looks guilty :=) - happened when said guilty party tried hooking a samurai cutter AHEAD of the loader valve and the cutter found a limb that was a bit much (dumb guy is a bit smarter now)

The NEW PUMP is working fine, thanks; and things are plumbed so NOTHING is ahead of the relief valve ... Steve

 

[WranglerX]

Ok... Now another question...

I don't know specs on control valve relief pressure on my splitter (Energy brand), but finding similar replacement valve (visual look alike) its states relief pressure is set at 2,250 (+/-) psi.... So if do the correct math with the advertised relief pressure and a 4 inch ram, I get a value of 28,274 psi output and divided by 2000 (one ton) I get a value of around 14.1 tons force at wedge... WHAT?... Badge on splitter says its 22 tons...

Hydraulic Cylinder Calculator

And if the formulas and concepts of hydraulics hold true how can manufacture state a some what inflated value when actual numbers (calculations) don't support it...

Dale

 

[Dave M7040]

Ok... Now another question...

I don't know specs on control valve relief pressure on my splitter (Energy brand), but finding similar replacement valve (visual look alike) its states relief pressure is set at 2,250 (+/-) psi.... So if do the correct math with the advertised relief pressure and a 4 inch ram, I get a value of 28,274 psi output and divided by 2000 (one ton) I get a value of around 14.1 tons force at wedge... WHAT?... Badge on splitter says its 22 tons...

Hydraulic Cylinder Calculator

And if the formulas and concepts of hydraulics hold true how can manufacture state a some what inflated value when actual numbers (calculations) don't support it...

Dale

Your relief valve would be set to 3,500 psi. which would yield 22 tons.

When replacing either pump or cylinder you need to make certain they are rated for that pressure.

You cannot compare hydraulic stuff based upon appearances.

Dave M7040

 

[WranglerX]

I understand your comment completely...The ENERGY brand replacement valve that "seems" to be correct for my application states it is a 2000 psi relief valve... But numbers on the ENERGY valve on my splitter do not direct cross reference to any valve by same manufacture or any other that I can find.... There is in parts list though a listing of "Control Valve - 3000 psi".... But it seems rather cryptic...

Log Splitter Valve and Accessories by Energy(R) Manufacturing Company, Inc.

Have sent e-mail to Energy Manufacturing with numbers on valve, only to be ignored or whatever a no response gets me...

The numbers etched on end of valve detent cover are ENERGY C1259J14, if anybody has any spec or cross reference on valve type/model it would b appreciated...

Dale

 

[Dave M7040]

"Theoretically the pump can develop high enough pressure to split its case as occurs when someone dead heads a pump which is blocking its discharge without a relief valve."

Dave, it ain't "theory" - I have the pump off my 580B sitting under the bench with the center section split in half to verify.
Some dumb-azz (won't mention any names, but when I look in the mirror he looks guilty :=) - happened when said guilty party tried hooking a samurai cutter AHEAD of the loader valve and the cutter found a limb that was a bit much (dumb guy is a bit smarter now)

The NEW PUMP is working fine, thanks; and things are plumbed so NOTHING is ahead of the relief valve ... Steve

Steve

I use the word theoretically as there is always someone who claims to have done the impossible without consequence.

Typically, my advice to someone who want to try something and see if it works on a hydraulic system is to post a picture of a split component and advise this failure happened within milliseconds of the first "try."

I am sorry you learned a hard lesson the expensive way. We have all been there and it is a lesson we all remember for a long time..

Please post a photo of your split pump

Dave M7040

 

[Dave M7040]

I understand your comment completely...The ENERGY brand replacement valve that "seems" to be correct for my application states it is a 2000 psi relief valve... But numbers on the ENERGY valve on my splitter do not direct cross reference to any valve by same manufacture or any other that I can find.... There is in parts list though a listing of "Control Valve - 3000 psi".... But it seems rather cryptic...

Log Splitter Valve and Accessories by Energy(R) Manufacturing Company, Inc.

Have sent e-mail to Energy Manufacturing with numbers on valve, only to be ignored or whatever a no response gets me...

The numbers etched on end of valve detent cover are ENERGY C1259J14, if anybody has any spec or cross reference on valve type/model it would b appreciated...

Dale

Dale

I re-read your first post and note the splitter was built in 1988. Components built by ENERGY Manufacturing in 1988, would have had a totally different spec's than today's products.

Today, products have to be designed and priced to be competitive against foreign products. Higher design pressures mean much higher manufacturing costs.

Further, it is possible they "uprated" their valve for DUERR because DUERR told them their splitters typically do not see a lot of use compared to an commercial application.

What all are you planning on replacing?

Will the splitter run long enough now for you to take a pressure reading.?

I found some manuals for DUERR splitters from 1988. From there I found a valve part number which is 717-0886.

Places which claim to sell these old splitter parts say the valve is rarely ordered and they are not certain if they can supply it.

I found a splitter valve for $75 which has relief pressures adjustable to 3,500 psi.

Hydraulic Log Splitter Valve, 25 gpm, 35 psi, Adjustable Detent & Au | ToolTuff Direct

Dave M7040

 

[WranglerX]

Dale

I re-read your first post and note the splitter was built in 1988. Components built by ENERGY Manufacturing in 1988, would have had a totally different spec's than today's products.

Today, products have to be designed and priced to be competitive against foreign products. Higher design pressures mean much higher manufacturing costs.

Further, it is possible they "uprated" their valve for DUERR because DUERR told them their splitters typically do not see a lot of use compared to an commercial application.

What all are you planning on replacing?

Will the splitter run long enough now for you to take a pressure reading.?

I found some manuals for DUERR splitters from 1988. From there I found a valve part number which is 717-0886.

Places which claim to sell these old splitter parts say the valve is rarely ordered and they are not certain if they can supply it.

I found a splitter valve for $75 which has relief pressures adjustable to 3,500 psi.

Hydraulic Log Splitter Valve, 25 gpm, 35 psi, Adjustable Detent & Au | ToolTuff Direct

Dave M7040

Thank you for all your research, but I already have most of that information....

Let me update some data....

The DUERR was most likely actually manufactured by MTD as almost all part numbers cross reference to MTD...

Splitter has NEW 6.5 HP engine... Old B&S had broke off carburetor and cost of replacing carb was more than a new engine....

All new hoses, 4000 psi hose from pump out put to control valve,..

New return hose from control valve to filter (500 psi)..

New WIX 51551 10 micron filter....

New wheels and tires.... It's probably pretty close to what it was when new except for 32 years of age and use (abuse)

Curiosity started when I was trying to operate 3 way valve and it would not go to extend position but would go to retract position.... Being the fiddler I am I looked up how the 3 way valve operated and
researched to a point that IF I did not disassemble it I would not know what was going on (sad to say I had to resort to YOU TUBE to get visual on detent assembly) ...Took detent assembly apart and discovered that it had sat for so long the detent end of valve had rusted to a spring retainer and was frozen so it would not move into extend position but valve would compress spring into retract position...

Completely cleaned up/removal of rust and polished all sliding surfaces in detent side (no I did not remove main shaft from control body as it seemed free) a bit of grease and all is good with detent body (control valve) ...

This provoked me to inquire what the pressure values were in system and the manual I have (with matching model number) did not really state how to test or adjust pressure other then in part list said "Control Valve - 3000 PSI)... Using the 3000 psi figure from parts list and fact it has 4 inch diameter cylinder does not exactly calculate out to tonnage on cylinder badge (22 ton) or statement in manual (20 ton)...




Dale