What NOT TO do!!

[SPIKER]

VALLYFARM:

sorry didn't mean to get you defencive there Like thingy said these are not in the sub cut catagory and are actually in the cut (larger size cut at that) weight in the 4500 lb range with out loader and with back hoe & loader can go closer to 6K lbs sure no where near that ollie but more than capable of yanking around some good sized rocks, logs & tools. I have 6' rock rake, blade and box blade as well as 6' rotary & (under sized tiller & RFM 48" & 5' respectivly) also when I said concrete blocks above they were solid poured concrete footers/peirs. that I was tearing out using the FEL instead of putting on the hoe like I should have.

though I do belive that that single cyl loader wasn't quite up to snuff and if you PUSH/DRIVE into the bucket with it on end/curled 1/2 way it will cause some problems (as demostraated) though a relife valve SHOULD be in the FEL valve which would have let the loader pressure back into the resiviour. There may be a clogged or improprley set relife valve in his system sine this is the 2nd loader (same valve?) prehaps there is a hyd valve problem where it will let too much force/pressure build into the system...

anyhow didn't mean to get anyones panties in a bunch lol Just kidding...

I do know my damage was due to neglect and I wouldn't doupt that much of the problem in the orriginal post may have also been due to damage. these FELs are not designed for DIGGING dirt/rocks or anything else they are susposed to lift move and or transport loose materials... I've dug gravel out of my creek bottom and also HARD PACKED CLAY as well as those concrete perirs. I'm sure this is reason I sheared off my front wheel shaft because I was in 4wheel drive often. something I learned to NOT do a while back but I still cought myself in 4wheel drive moving packed dirt pile this past week...

Mark M

 

[gemini5362]

One bad suggests a manufacturing problem. Two bad ones starts shifting the issue towards a customer problem. Perhaps you've chosen the wrong tool for the job?

//greg//

Greg on my montana I broke a hose on the loader two weeks after I got it. I replaced the hose and then a week later broke another one. I thought that it was something I was doing. a month later I broke a third one doing something fairly light. I noticed that the hoses that came on that loader were 2350 psi and the new ones i was having made were 4000 psi. I talked to montana and they replaced all my hoses with 4000 psi. The new loaders on the montana had 4000 psi hoses. The moral here is that I had three failures in basically the same area and it was a design problem not an operator problem.


I have done exactly what he is talking about popping trees and stumps etc out of the ground. I run my tractor in 4 wheel drive always. Other than a problem with the hoses I have never had any problems with my loader. It sounds to me like it is an design problem.

 

[greg_g]

Don't take this personally, but yours sounds like a dealer problem. He did initially install the loader on your tractor, right? And then subsequently provide you with two more incorrect hoses? So I really don't see how it relates to the original poster who admittedly overstressed his equipment (http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/1022098-post45.html).

//greg//

 

[TobaccoRoad]

The Koyker loader that Chip put on my tractor appears right much stronger than your loader. When you get ready to move up in HP, pick up a Kama from Chip with a Koyker loader. I have enjoyed mine.....

Cheers,
TR

 

[bluechip]

I was at the factory Saturday met with entire new management team. We should have KM554s with EPA engines available for order within a few weeks stay tuned. 5000 employee complex, I'll post some pictures when I get back, (didn't bring the cable.... or a laptop for that matter, I am writing this from hotel computer in Jinan.

 

[gemini5362]

Don't take this personally, but yours sounds like a dealer problem. He did initially install the loader on your tractor, right? And then subsequently provide you with two more incorrect hoses? So I really don't see how it relates to the original poster who admittedly overstressed his equipment (http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/1022098-post45.html).

//greg//

One bad suggests a manufacturing problem. Two bad ones starts shifting the issue towards a customer problem. Perhaps you've chosen the wrong tool for the job?

I believe the point I was making was that I had two problems in the same area which was hydraulic hoses. You stated that two bad ones start shifting the issue towards a customer problem. I had problems with my loader breaking hydraulic hoses actually three of them broke but yet it was not a customer problem. It was a design fault that the hoses that were put on the loader were not high enough capacity to do the job.

The point here is that while he might have overstressed his equipment their is a reasonable expectation that the equipment mounted on his tractor should have been able to perform certain functions. The way he was using his tractor might have been a very reasonable expectation of what the tractor should have been capable of doing. The problem might have been a design flaw. The best example I can think of is a ROP if you are driveing your tractor and a sink hole opens up under the tire and your tractor rolls over you have a reasonable expectation that the material and design of the ROP will keep the tractor from crushing you flat provided you are wearing a seat belt etc etc. If the ROP fails because someone used to light a material for the weight of the tractor then that would be a design flaw.

 

[thingy]

That is an excellent way of describing it,understood you perfectlly,,,thingy

 

[greg_g]

I believe the point I was making was that I had two problems in the same area which was hydraulic hoses. You stated that two bad ones start shifting the issue towards a customer problem. I had problems with my loader breaking hydraulic hoses actually three of them broke but yet it was not a customer problem. It was a design fault that the hoses that were put on the loader were not high enough capacity to do the job.

I do not agree that your example represents this issue. There was nothing wrong with your hoses, they were almost certainly installed by a dealer who simply used the wrong hose for the job. If you can confirm that the manufacturer specified that exact hose for that exact application, then I'll withdraw. But so far you haven't convinced me that yours is not a dealer issue.

The point here is that while he might have overstressed his equipment their is a reasonable expectation that the equipment mounted on his tractor should have been able to perform certain functions. The way he was using his tractor might have been a very reasonable expectation of what the tractor should have been capable of doing. The problem might have been a design flaw.

In my view, it's still a matter of using the wrong tool for the job. What's yet to be revealed here is the load/lift rating for that particular FEL. Whereas this once again is a case of self-admitted equipment abuse, it might well be another case of a dealer putting the wrong loader on the tractor. Just because it fit, doesn't mean it was the right loader for the type of work the customer wanted to do with it (obviously).

If the FEL in question was put on a little Cat 0 Simplicity or other SCUT, I don't think we'd even be having this discussion.

//greg//

 

[Gerifalte]

What's yet to be revealed here is the load/lift rating for that particular FEL.
//greg//

AFAIK his loader is a coldwater, which is rated for approx 1,000 pounds. I have the same loader on a JM284LE and haven't had any problems (yet). I have never tried to pull stumps with it, but I have leveled some pretty compacted rocky soil and the loader performed very well.

 

[Soundguy]

1k# is a pretty light duty loader.. IMHO...

Soundguy

 

[greg_g]

1k# is a pretty light duty loader.. IMHO...

Soundguy

No kidding. Even my rear hitch hydraulics are rated for a helluva lot more than that !

Ok, I think I can now rest my case - wrong tool for the job. Almost certainly not initially the fault of a novice buyer - more like a case of a dealer dressing up a "package deal" with a wholly undersized loader. But I think there's a saying about "twice bitten......"

//greg//

 

[Gerifalte]

No kidding. Even my rear hitch hydraulics are rated for a helluva lot more than that !

Ok, I think I can now rest my case - wrong tool for the job. Almost certainly not initially the fault of a novice buyer - more like a case of a dealer dressing up a "package deal" with a wholly undersized loader. But I think there's a saying about "twice bitten......"

//greg//

Actually, Jinma seems to disagree with you: their JM/ZL-20 loader is rated at way less than 1k. Actually, they rate the lift capacity to full height to be only 875 Lbs. See Specifications Sheet for Tractor Outlet Equipment or here Front End Loader - China 7.06 cubic feet Front Loader Manufacturer

 

[Soundguy]

The more i thought of that 1000# rated loader.. I started thinking... Here are some pics of my 1000# rated loader.

She's only got 1 support arm, and is 51 years old and runs fine of a 4gpm pump...

That other loader sounds like it was built to scoop pine bark.. or maneuer.. and or be fit to a SCUT.. etc..

Soundguy

No kidding. Even my rear hitch hydraulics are rated for a helluva lot more than that !

Ok, I think I can now rest my case - wrong tool for the job. Almost certainly not initially the fault of a novice buyer - more like a case of a dealer dressing up a "package deal" with a wholly undersized loader. But I think there's a saying about "twice bitten......"

//greg//

 

[Soundguy]

Wow.. what a 'piece'.. ( pardon that..)

I guess it is better than a shovel and wheel barrow though..

Soundguy

Actually, Jinma seems to disagree with you: their JM/ZL-20 loader is rated at way less than 1k. Actually, they rate the lift capacity to full height to be only 875 Lbs. See Specifications Sheet for Tractor Outlet Equipment or here Front End Loader - China 7.06 cubic feet Front Loader Manufacturer

 

[gemini5362]

I do not agree that your example represents this issue. There was nothing wrong with your hoses, they were almost certainly installed by a dealer who simply used the wrong hose for the job. If you can confirm that the manufacturer specified that exact hose for that exact application, then I'll withdraw. But so far you haven't convinced me that yours is not a dealer issue.


In my view, it's still a matter of using the wrong tool for the job. What's yet to be revealed here is the load/lift rating for that particular FEL. Whereas this once again is a case of self-admitted equipment abuse, it might well be another case of a dealer putting the wrong loader on the tractor. Just because it fit, doesn't mean it was the right loader for the type of work the customer wanted to do with it (obviously).

If the FEL in question was put on a little Cat 0 Simplicity or other SCUT, I don't think we'd even be having this discussion.

//greg//

You are the one that made the statement that two problems started shifting the blame towards the customer. I am saying that my loader had two problems in the same area and it was not a customer issue. Why would you equate that to a dealer problem.

You might know more than I do about the way loaders are installed on tractors. I do not know who puts the rubber hoses on the unit. I dont know if they come with the loader or the dealer puts them on when they install the loader. I do believe that whether it is the dealer or the manufacturer it is still not a customer issue. If I buy a new tractor and loader combination and the parts that are installed are not heavy duty enough for the size of the tractor then that is not a customer issue that is a dealer/ manufacturer issue. The poster said the second time the unit broke he was loading the bucket in soft dirt. That makes me think it is probably a design problem and not the owners abuse of the equipment that lead to the problem. He needs to get the dealer to take care of it. My problem with my tractor was a design problem at some level either the manufacturer specifications of the hoses was too light or the dealer when he "designed" the system by putting those hoses on. Either way I went back to the Manufacturer and they resolved the problem by replacing all the suspect hoses. This poster needs to go back to the dealer and have them either fix it or refund his money. There is a section of law that deals with this issue. Under implied merchantability if the tractor and bucket are sold as a unit to move dirt with then it has to be able to move dirt. I dont see tractor ads so I dont know if technically it was designed to remove stumps but since the second failure was moving dirt then I dont think the tractor is meeting the test for implied merchantability.

 

[thingy]

1,000 lbs in a loader on a 254 would be a lot,[I ain't got a loader,but do have a 254],I think the rear wheels would probably want to come up pretty easily,,any ways I didn't think we was talking about lift capacity,just that the loader broke,it coulda been rated to pick up 2,000 lbs and it woulda still broke,,,thingy

 

[greg_g]

Actually, Jinma seems to disagree with you: their JM/ZL-20 loader is rated at way less than 1k. Actually, they rate the lift capacity to full height to be only 875 Lbs. See Specifications Sheet for Tractor Outlet Equipment or here Front End Loader - China 7.06 cubic feet Front Loader Manufacturer

So which Coldwater lift rating were you talking about specifically? There's bucket lift capacity and a breakaway lift capacity. Whereas the ZL-20 is rated at 875# lift, the breakaway is 2200#. You said the Coldwater was only 1000#s. Since they don't seem to list any specs on their website, perhaps you can clarify. If in fact that particular Coldwater loader has a breakaway lift rating of only half a ton, it most certainly doesn't belong on anything stouter than a SCUT.

//greg//

 

[greg_g]

I do not know who puts the rubber hoses on the unit. I dont know if they come with the loader or the dealer puts them on when they install the loader.

It's nice that you got your hose issue sorted, but I'm actually more interested in Dan's ongoing loader problem. This discussion is continuing to evolve, but for some reason needle is stuck on hoses. With all the respect I can muster, I'm going to suggest you go back and read all 61 posts that were made prior to your hoses entering the equation.

//greg//

 

[thingy]

huh?? thingy

 

[gemini5362]

It's nice that you got your hose issue sorted, but I'm actually more interested in Dan's ongoing loader problem. This discussion is continuing to evolve, but for some reason needle is stuck on hoses. With all the respect I can muster, I'm going to suggest you go back and read all 61 posts that were made prior to your hoses entering the equation.

//greg//

With all the respect I can muster which might not be much. I am going to suggest that if you are worried about his ongoing loader problem then you dont make comments about something happening twice being a customer related issue and instead focus on a solution. My suggestion for a solution has been outlined in previous posts of which my hose example was only a small part of. I believe he should look into the implied merchantability of his unit and either have the dealer fix the problem (preferably with a new loader) or refund his money,
or check on the price of a new loader and see what the maximum amount he can sue for under the small claim act in his state. If it is for enough I would sue the dealer for the cost of a new loader, put all that has happened in front of a judge including pictures and a detailed account of what he was doing when it broke and possibly if he can get a witness that has a similar tractor with a different loader. Then I would let a small claim court judge make the decision about it. What is your suggestion he should do ?