What Horsepower/what tractor?

[handcuff]

Hey guys,
I have been working with a Kubota B2400 for the last several years, and am finally biting the bullet to step up to a new tractor. I have (had?) selected the new Kioti DK4210se hydrostatic, with an expectation to receive it within the next week or two. The dealer has ordered it and says that he is waiting on confirmation that it has been shipped.

Now my question/problem: I just read the specs (didn't have them available when I made the order) and realized that the PTO HP is less than what I expected. On Kubota, it seems like the hydrostatic trans 'steals' about 5HP from total (thus a 39hp tractor is reduced to ~34HP @ PTO). I assumed that was true of the Kioti also, but it doesn't play out that way -



It looks like the Kioti 42 has about 30HP @ PTO. That was a bit of a disappointment for me, but I don't know if it *should* be...just that I expected it to be in the ~35-37 realm and it ends up being 30. My previous tractor was 18hp to the PTO, and had a bit of a challenge running a 5 ft bush hog. It ran a 4.5 ft tiller and my auger without issue. My new tractor is mostly to get a cab (terrible allergies) and to get more lift capacity (old tractor only had ~800#'s, new one will have ~2,700).

So my question: Now that I've seen this, I question if I should go to the next step up on HP - go for the 4710 (or even the 5210) since the physical size is the same. I don't know if it is 'worth it' to step up in HP, given that the 18HP was doing almost everything I needed. Stepping up an additional 12 HP is a jump of an additional 67%, so my assumption is that it should do everything - but I always hear 'get more than what you expect to need.' Also, I don't know if going to the next size up would cost additional time - they haven't informed him that it has shipped yet, but I don't want to go to the back of the line.

For context, I have 7.5 acres of land that I take care of. 2 acres remain wooded with trails, and 5.5 acres of cleared/used land. I don't have animals except chickens, dogs and my kids. =) I'm in KY where we get some snowfall, but not enough to justify getting a snow-blower. Mostly, I garden, move the chicken coop around, and do a lot of firewood (we heat with it almost exclusively). I'll start mowing the back pasture with the tractor rather than my ZTR Scag once I have it, due to allergies. Front pasture will continue to be mowed with the Scag, because it does a great job of that.

So what are your thoughts? Is 30HP sufficient? Should I be looking at more? I don't know what the cost difference is, but it looks like it's about $1500/jump.
I got the DK because it was large enough for a non-cramped cab, but small enough to still be somewhat nimble on my land. The NX series seemed too large of a footprint; the CK got feedback of 'cramped cab' on several threads.

Thanks for any advice, in advance.
-Scott

 

[majorwager]

Handcuff,
Very easy to spend another's money. The 30 PTO hp is likely adequate, but I am a proponent of greater abilities if funds allow. Did you look at the Yanmar YT series?

I believe that the additional hp places less strain upon the drivetrain when approaching the upper limits of the implement requirements. Does the dealer have a tractor that you can demo at your home for a weekend.? That might provide more insight as you make your decision. Any contemplated options are less expensive prior to purchase than subsequently. So loaded tires, SSQA (if optional), additional rear hydraulic remote, R wiper (if cab), tire type, wheel weights, should be considered. Ask dealer for complete options list. As an aside, you would be surprised how quickly one adapts to what is perceived to be a tractor TOO LARGE. Yet one size does NOT fit all, and small compacts have their niche as well.

A specific poster is obsessed (overbearing) w/ tractor weight, excel spreadsheets and any hillside operation. Take ALL advice w/ the proverbial grain of salt. A specific tractor purchasing guide is the ultimate cure for insomnia. The tractor cost per pound is pure twilight zone.

 

[CMV]

You buying larger implements or staying with the 5' you have?

I think it's close to same from Kioti or Kubota. Just Kubota does a better job of advertising specs more clearly and lists gross and net HP where Kioti specs are gross. So when you subtract PTO HP from Kioti gross and Kubota net it looks like Kioti loses more. Issue is the Kioti advertising a "42HP tractor" that Kubota would call a "39HP tractor" - or similar #s. At least that was impression I walked away with after much comparing between the two oranges.

L4701HST for example is -10.5HP from engine gross to PTO. My NX is -11HP from engine gross to PTO.

Anyway, at 33.9 PTO HP, I don't feel like I'm running low on HP running 6' bush hog or 6/ rotary tiller. I don't have anything more demanding for the PTO. Going up hill in mid range bush hogging and it just goes without dropping RPM a noticeable amount.

 

[handcuff]

@MajorWager - Thank you for the feedback! I agree with the 'get as much as you can afford' and while I don't have much concern for size (my property is fairly open) I want to be able to park under my awning so I didn't go with the next size up (NX45). The difference in those two inches means parking under an awning vs parking outdoors. However, most importantly - I want to be able to do what I need to do with my tractor and it's power. I just don't know if I'm realistically evaluating my needs or simply wanting the next larger tractor.

@CMV - Very helpful information, so thank you! I had considered calling my dealer and asking for pricing on the next step up - was concerned that:
+ the stutter-step would cause angst for my dealer - given that he has already ordered the first tractor,
+ the change in order would cost additional time (I've been without a tractor now for two weeks, and work is backing up)
+ the additional financial cost (unknown, but guessing at ~$1,500) may not be worth it for the work I need to do.

Trying to balance and stay grounded rather than get caught up in new/shiny/powerful toys.

 

[Thomas]

Not less than 30hp at PTO,maybe little more horse power if HST.

 

[3gunr]

My mahindra 2538 has 32 pto hp,It runs a 6 ft cutter and 6 ft tiller with ease.I spent about 15 hrs last weekend mowing 3 to 5 ft brush and grass and never bogged down once.I have a mahindra 2810 with around 23 pto hp and it runs 5 ft implements with no trouble. Enjoy your new tractor.

 

[cphilip]

I think PTO HP is the most lied about spec on tractors...

I run 5 foot stuff on 21.7 HP and does an adequate job. Your going to likely be able to run larger than you have now. Probably fine with 6 foot stuff. You might have to slow down in real heavy big stuff sometimes. Maybe not.

 

[ksbrdmkr]

Rule of thumb on brush mowers is to have 5HP per foot of mower, 15 foot bat wing at least a 75 HP tractor, if you want to mow fast 5mph+ you need more HP.

 

[CMV]

My little LS with 18.5hp @PTO ran a 5' bush hog just fine. Never bogged it down. That rule of thumb - although I've read it here multiple times - just doesn't seem accurate. Or maybe only if you're talking about the heaviest 3"+ capacity cutters. A lighter 1-2" capacity bush hog? I don't think you need nearly that much.

Anyway....I think you're focusing on wrong spec. Look way down that column near the bottom....you'll see you need >5' to cover the tracks, so you'll want 6'. Any new major brand tractor is going to be capable of covering its tracks. Regardless of what you could theoretically run or some rule of thumb tells you, I'd look at it like this: I need 6' to cover tracks (because odd in between size isn't going to be common) and price jump from a 6' to 7' is extremely high compared to 4-5', 5-6'. Plus > 6' you're getting really long overall from bucket lip to tailwheel so even if you could run a 7' you might not want to.

 

[airbiscuit]

You have plenty of hp for a 5' rotary cutter.

 

[Threepoint]

@MajorWager - Thank you for the feedback! I agree with the 'get as much as you can afford' and while I don't have much concern for size (my property is fairly open) I want to be able to park under my awning so I didn't go with the next size up (NX45). The difference in those two inches means parking under an awning vs parking outdoors. [snip]

Handcuff, if you need just two more inches of clearance to get an NX45 under your awning, and you were figuring the height with R4 tires, you could lose another two inches just by going with R3 turfs instead. That might be a better choice for your application anyway. :scratchchin:

 

[CMV]

Or fold the ROPS? I replaced the shoulder bolts (with NYLOCKS!) with some red head hitch pins. Takes maybe 20 sec to fold/unfold them. Have to do that to get into shipping container home for it.

 

[Sparkeee24]

The fact that you are considering greater hp now, seems to me, will not just vanish. I think you will really enjoy the nx series more. Secondary note, the cab really helps with concerns for weathering as most items that deteriorate fast are under the cab. I would get the tool you want for the job, and upgrade or problem solve the tool box to contain it afterward. It's not going to rot away in 6 months while you work out a storage solution

 

[CobyRupert]

Power (horsepower) = Energy/time

The amount of power a 5' (or 6', 7', 12' or 15') mower requires depends on how fast you want to mow. Period.

Cutting an acre takes "x" amount of energy. Doesn't matter if you do it with a 3 hp -18 inch mower in 3 hours, or a 100 hp 15' mower in 6 minutes. It takes the same amount of energy.
Same with driving up a hill towing a 10,000lb trailer. It takes same amount of energy no matter if you doing it with a 20 horsepower tractor at 4 mph, or have a 300 hp truck doing it at 60 mph. Same amount of energy. It just takes 15 times longer with the tractor.

That being said, realistically you run out of gears, weight, or tractor is too light to handle lifting the implement.
Also remember that not all mowing conditions require full power (that is: the grass is not very tall, or you don't always want to travel maximum speed).

Horsepower is how fast you can deliver the required energy.

 

[Threepoint]

Handcuff, if you need just two more inches of clearance to get an NX45 under your awning, and you were figuring the height with R4 tires, you could lose another two inches just by going with R3 turfs instead. That might be a better choice for your application anyway. :scratchchin:

A couple of other points. Just occurred to me that you might have been figuring overall height based on Kioti's website specs, which as I recall give height based on R1 ag tires. If so, R3s would put you at four inches lower!

As for frame size, I remember (from your other thread?) that you currently have a Kubota B2400. Be sure you spend a lot of time at the dealer's yard test driving the models you're considering. The NX is not nimble by any stretch! When I got my NX with cab, I kept my B2150 open station tractor. Really glad I did, as it is my go-to machine in close quarters. More maneuverable and quicker for smaller jobs. I think you also said that you'd like the comfort of a cab. It this will be your ony tractor, you may be better off staying with open station for your particular uses. But, if you're able to keep your B2400, then go for an NX cab, no question! The cab model also has a much lower overall height than the ROPs configuration.

 

[handcuff]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I appreciate it.

The NX isn't that much larger than the DK, but it is larger. In thinking about it, I decided I was going to step up to the next engine size in the same frame - I talked to the dealer today and he swapped the order to a DK4710.

I thought about keeping the smaller tractor, but the $ from the sale is what put my wife over the edge on getting a new tractor...without those funds, I'd be stuck with the old one.

 

[bigcut]

CMV,
Hope this isn't off subject, but a few curiosity questions:
What led you to select the NX4510 over the DK4710SE, since they are so close ?
What led you to select Kioti over LS ?
I'd appreciate your thoughts.

You can PM if you prefer. I'm pondering these same points for myself. That's why I ask.
Thanks,
John

 

[CMV]

CMV,
Hope this isn't off subject, but a few curiosity questions:
What led you to select the NX4510 over the DK4710SE, since they are so close ?
What led you to select Kioti over LS ?
I'd appreciate your thoughts.

You can PM if you prefer. I'm pondering these same points for myself. That's why I ask.
Thanks,
John

DK didn't have HST option when I was shopping. Initial price quotes for a DK HST put them at same price as NX - or within couple hundred bucks. True availability/ship dates weren't known either - I didn't want to plan on Jul-Aug and then find out there was some production delay or whatever. But at the time it just wouldn't have made sense to get DK over NX unless you wanted gear/shuttle and none of the SE options - otherwise get the bigger machine and loader for same $. Now that the HST DK are available no idea what the real price is on them - was working off estimates.

I need loader lift height. That's why LS quickly got crossed off my list even though the little LS I had at the time I liked. But I need as close to 8' dump clearance as I can get and LS just don't get there.

Mrs CMV also part of the process. When we went for her to look at CK3510 and make sure it would adjust to fit her too, she started climbing on others. When she hit the NX she said "get this one! The seat is much more comfortable". We had the LS on trailer that day to get its trade-in estimate. So she suggested parking them next to each other and comparing loaders vs just comparing on paper. With all 3 parked in a row, loaders at full height, it was really obvious. Had DK HST been there that day, it would have gone into the comparison too and maybe would have won. NX is bigger than I need for 99% of what I do with it. But she pointed out that if the main reason to upgrade from the LS was to get a bigger/higher loader, the CK really wasn't THAT much of an increase - esp parked next to the NX. So if the primary reason was to get bigger loader, then get the most capable one even if it costs a little more.

 

[bigcut]

Your wife is a pretty smart cookie.....Is she available for consultation work ???

I didn't realize that the DK didn't have HST when you made your decision at the time.

What do you think of the NX4510 HST with Cab, vs, DK4710 SE with the hdro and cab ?

Is the cab and seat any better/bigger in the NX vs, the DK (I realize the frame is slightly larger) ? Let me know what your wife thinks. I rely on my wife as well for many decisions. After all, that's why we married them, right ?

 

[CMV]

I got open station - would love a cab for mowing, but I go into the woods too much and use a shipping container for storage so that ruled out a cab for me. Budget did also. So can't comment on that at all.

I think you will find the 2 very similar in capability. Maybe a little more room inside the NX. For my open station, I can get on/off either side easily - since I skipped over DK entirely don't remember much about them. Might come down to $, does one have more remotes, can you get in/out both sides, etc. something like that will separate them for you I'd guess.